The Greystone Bastard (naming lore query)

[Emmanellain]

I'll be honest and say I hope SE does not being our friend back in primal form. That would invalidate the drama of his death--let him rest and focus on the other Fortemps men.

Would it invalidate his death though? I mean we'd have an actual primal we would feel conflicted about putting down and it would be a smart move by the ascians since they're struggling in their fight against us. You'd have a primal that's more than just your typical Garuda, Titan, Ifrit ect. who are just sword fodder. Shiva was interesting and so was Ramuh since they were more complicated than just a standard primal. I mean I doubt SE would ever do it, but I don't see how it would invalidate his death considering he wouldn't be the Haurchefant we know but a mockery of his person, like Bahamut was according to Tiamat. In spirit Haurchefant would very much remain dead.

[Belhi]

Technically, as a primal, he wouldn't be Haurchefant at all so I'm not sure the WoL would feel that conflicted to be honest. We already know that primals aren't the original, just a manifestation of the summoners beliefs and desires wearing a form similar to the original.

[FJerome]

But aside from that there's definetly something wrong brewing in the Fortemps household, you have to wonder why Edmont didn't even lift a brow when his oldest son offered to put down his sword in the vault while his middle child is still "warm in his coffin" as Lucia says.

Somewhat tangential but do we know for certain that Haurchefant was the middle child or is that something we've all been assuming?

[CyberForte]

Somewhat tangential but do we know for certain that Haurchefant was the middle child or is that something we've all been assuming?

I think this comes from Emmanellain introducing himself as the second son--then immediately correcting it to second trueborn son, which is pretty close to a confirmation.

[myahele]

Yeah, Artoirel is the Eldest (legitimate)Son of Edmont de Fortemps

Let us begin anew, Master Surname. I am Ser Artoirel de Fortemps, eldest son of Count Edmont de Fortemps. You will forgive me my outburst, I hope. I meant no disrespect. I merely consider myself equal to the duties entrusted to me...unlike some.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Lo...:Over_the_Wall

Since the writers are such big fans of GoT it's more in line with Robb Stark being many months older than Jon Snow

[Ayuhra]

Somewhat tangential but do we know for certain that Haurchefant was the middle child or is that something we've all been assuming?

We know for certain.

Journal entry for the Quest Over the Wall:

Ser Artoirel de Fortemps, eldest son of Count Edmont de Fortemps, did not expect to have company on his mission to aid houses Durendaire and Dzemael─a prospect he was not particularly enthusiastic about in the first place, given the ancient rivalries between Ishgard's noble families.

Emmanellain in the quest Onwards and Upwards

Ah, but where are my manners. Emmanellain de Fortemps, second son of Count Edmont de Fortemps—trueborn, that is.

[Cilia]

To be honest i got a suspicious vibe when i watched Artoriel through the 3.1 storyline, if you go and rewatch the cutscenes his father frowns at him when he speaks right before you enter the vault and Emmanellain who is usually very carefree and fun was absolutely livid at his brother by the end of the MSQ patch. ...I don't know man, It seems fishy!

I think people are thinking about this just a little too hard. Just a little.

If you'll remember, Artoriel was originally very headstrong and stubborn and insisted he didn't need our help. He actually admits that some part of him wanted us to fail and die on our co-op mission out in the Western Highlands because Haurchefant praised us so highly. Our success and conduct won him over during the mission, though, and he pledged not to doubt us again. He had a very professional demeanor, even if he was rather rude to us at first.

Emmanellain, on the other hand, was portrayed as a carefree fool. He is much kinder than Artoriel even in the beginning, but treats the mission like a game. After arriving at Camp Cloudtop and flirting with Lady Lainette, he's assigned surveillance - an unglamorous but necessary task - and he ends up getting captured by the Vundu. We go to rescue him, and he cowers behind us every step of the way during the escape. Once we return to the manor, he expects to be praised for his efforts and conduct, but ends up (rightfully) being scolded.

That's all we really saw of the two before 3.1.

As for Count Edmont, the Quest Log does indeed say that he regards Aymeric as a son. That said, at the present time it's rather understandable - he and Haurchefant are a lot alike in many ways. Aymeric has also been put into the position of being Ishgard's icon of hope, willingly or otherwise, and losing him would at present throw the nation into chaos. We also later learn that Edmont is going to step down as head of House Fortemps, so I'm willing to bet he was trying to impart some last wisdom to the young Lord Commander before he does so.

From all of this, what I can gather is...

Artoriel is hesitant of the change in Ishgard, but also accepting of the truth and willing to take up the burden of being Count so long as he has someone he can rely on to support him. He is afraid, but he's not going to let his fear stop him from doing what he believes is right for Ishgard. Many of the things he does here seem to be to prove to himself that, even if the title of Count is built on a lie, he has earned it. He doesn't want it to just be handed to him, and in the scenes with Count Edmont seems to be trying to gauge what exactly Edmont is trying to do.

Emmanellain, on the other hand, is probably not taking the change well. Compared to the other members of House Fortemps, he's rather cowardly - just a braggart, really. Honoroit also mentions usually having to comb the taverns to find him, so he's probably quite the drinker on top of it. I'd wager he's just trying to come to terms with everything, and isn't doing so quite as well as Artoriel. Having more responsibility put on him probably isn't going to end well unless it's done slowly as Edmont suggests. I think he is angry due to a number of factors, from Edmont being so close to Haurchefant despite the latter being a bastard child, to the endless praise he has for the Warrior of Light, to the regard he holds Aymeric in, to jealousy over Artoriel finding his conviction. Emmanellain seems confused and unsure of what to do or where he fits in, something I am all too familiar with.

That said, I don't think there's anything particularly bad brewing in House Fortemps. It's just a microcosm of the political strife within Ishgard if you ask me.

[Dalvy]

Would it invalidate his death though? I mean we'd have an actual primal we would feel conflicted about putting down and it would be a smart move by the ascians since they're struggling in their fight against us. You'd have a primal that's more than just your typical Garuda, Titan, Ifrit ect. who are just sword fodder. Shiva was interesting and so was Ramuh since they were more complicated than just a standard primal. I mean I doubt SE would ever do it, but I don't see how it would invalidate his death considering he wouldn't be the Haurchefant we know but a mockery of his person, like Bahamut was according to Tiamat. In spirit Haurchefant would very much remain dead.

I say it because from a storytelling standpoint, who wants another episode like Nanamo? "Surprise, I'm back!" That was a sore point for people. His story has ended, so let's focus on the rest of the household.

[Ayuhra]

I say it because from a storytelling standpoint, who wants another episode like Nanamo? "Surprise, I'm back!" That was a sore point for people. His story has ended, so let's focus on the rest of the household.

I am okay with him coming back to life if it's impactful and done well (unpopular opinion, I know). Imagine if we went on some sort of ridiculous quest to resurrect him using the Light or the Echo or something similar? My problem with Nanamo wasn't so much that she came back it was that she was revealed to be alive in a cutscene as a sort of aside. Once we learned she was okay the ending of 2.x and all of Ul'dah had its reset button pressed. Bummer. I do think that's going to go somewhere soon but so far nothing.

Also to Nanamo's credit we were dragged out of her room very, very quickly. There were hints that she could be fine. Haurchefant is DEAD. Ressurecting him completely could be an interesting quest since normally dead is dead in this world.

[myahele]

I suppose it'll depend on who our next Ascien antagonist will be (Pashtarot?) Since the WoL killed off 2 Asciens (not counting Lahabrea) I can see them retaliating by having one of the lesser members body snatch or zombify Haurchefant just to antagonize the WoL further. I'd rather they not do it,but the opportunity/possibility is there