The Greystone Bastard (naming lore query)

[Naria]

I get the feeling they didn't (he only had a short series of quests in 2.0's MSQ), but the fact is after asking the Warrior of Light for a small favor he's nothing but friendly and enthusiastic. Compared to the rest of the Warrior of Light's "friends," he treats you more like a person than a tool - your alliance with the Scions was done mostly because they thought you would be a useful asset to the organization (and thus the realm), not because they actually liked you, and the Grand Company leaders were similar.

I agree with this. If fact Alphaunad's realization that the Warrior of Light is an actual person and not just a convenient implement of mass destruction in 3.0 is a large part of what has made me start to warm to his character. With most of the Scions regardless of how much I may like their character have never really felt like friends with the WoL. Allies yes, or coworkers perhaps but if the WoL suddenly lost a leg or the Echo tomorrow and was no longer able to fight, I don't feel they'd stand by them. Feel bad, sure. Send them a gift at Starlight, sure. Maybe drop by if they were in town and not too busy. Hauchefant on the other hand I feel would have done whatever he could have to help the WoL. While he certainly found the ability to fight primals . . . er . . . impressive, the sudden lack of that ability would not have changed his regard.

The Scions are perfectly willing to risk their lives for the WoL and Minfilla in 2.55, but I ultimately felt like it was more because they believed that was the best way to protect Hydaelyn. Hauchefant's sacrifice was only to protect the WoL for no other reason then he did not want a world without them in it.

I've always felt that the surviving members of the Circle of Knowing share a comradery with each other that the other Scions are not a part of. This isn't actually a criticism of how the Scions have been portrayed given that even if you are a Legacy player you don't actually interact with them outside of "work" that much, so it is not surprising. I praise Hauchefant's character more since they managed to give him a more personal relationship with so little actual "screen time" when compared to the other characters.

Still I feel the game is poorer without Hauchefant or a truly personal friendship for the WoL. Perhaps with his sibling declaration in 3.1 the WoL will start to have a closer friendship Artoriel. Was anyone else like. . . "er Artoriel, I really don't think your brother thought of me as a sister" in that scene? Maybe he just meant sister-in-arms?

[Cilia]

The Scions are perfectly willing to risk their lives for the WoL and Minfilla in 2.55, but I ultimately felt like it was more because they believed that was the best way to protect Hydaelyn. Hauchefant's sacrifice was only to protect the WoL for no other reason then he did not want a world without them in it.

...

Still I feel the game is poorer without Hauchefant or a truly personal friendship for the WoL. Perhaps with his sibling declaration in 3.1 the WoL will start to have a closer friendship Artoriel. Was anyone else like. . . "er Artoriel, I really don't think your brother thought of me as a sister" in that scene? Maybe he just meant sister-in-arms?

That's ultimately what it comes down to.

Minfilia, and by extension the rest of the Scions probably, used the rationale of "You are the Warrior of Light, Eorzea's hope!" to clarify why they were willing to sacrifice themselves to keep you safe.

Haurchefant just didn't want to see you get hurt because he cared about you. That's the kind of friend someone like the Warrior of Light needs, not someone who makes you shoulder the burden of being the hope of the world. Arguably that's why Alphinaud, Estinien, and Ysayle all become friends with the Warrior of Light to varying degrees - they treat you more like a person than a tool compared to how it was with the Scions' "Go kill this primal, Warrior of Light!"

Hopefully we do get more characters like Haurchefant, who are there to support you when you really need it and don't place too much pressure on you. Or send you on missions to kill primals all the time, then call you every five minutes and tell you to come back to the Waking Sands / Rising Stones.

I wouldn't mind developing a closer friendship with Artoriel; he seems like a good enough character, though I don't want him to be Haurchefant 2.0. I'm kind of worried about Emmanellain, though. And while the Warrior of Light may not have considered Haurchefant a literal brother, it may have been the other way around. Brother / sister from another mother, y'know what I'm sayin'?

[Emmanellain]

I wouldn't mind developing a closer friendship with Artoriel; he seems like a good enough character, though I don't want him to be Haurchefant 2.0. I'm kind of worried about Emmanellain, though.[/size]

To be honest i got a suspicious vibe when i watched Artoriel through the 3.1 storyline, if you go and rewatch the cutscenes his father frowns at him when he speaks right before you enter the vault and Emmanellain who is usually very carefree and fun was absolutely livid at his brother by the end of the MSQ patch. My Fiance and i sat down a whole afternoon and watched the cutscenes from Heavensward with Artoriel in them and we found his new behavior odd, it kinda feels like he's acting a little like his half brother to become more likeable to the WoL in 3.1, although as someone have already stated this might just be character development on his part. But I don't know.. he was smirking when he left the room to go after the angry Emmanellain..

But aside from that there's definetly something wrong brewing in the Fortemps household, you have to wonder why Edmont didn't even lift a brow when his oldest son offered to put down his sword in the vault while his middle child is still "warm in his coffin" as Lucia says. Rather he frowns when Artoriel speaks up as if what he said was the stupidest thing he had ever heard. Then to follow it up by gushing over Aymeric when they get out with his "I see much of Haurchefant in you" while Artoriel is right there behind him.
I don't know man, It seems fishy!

[FJerome]

But aside from that there's definetly something wrong brewing in the Fortemps household, you have to wonder why Edmont didn't even lift a brow when his oldest son offered to put down his sword in the vault while his middle child is still "warm in his coffin" as Lucia says.

Somewhat tangential but do we know for certain that Haurchefant was the middle child or is that something we've all been assuming?

[CyberForte]

Somewhat tangential but do we know for certain that Haurchefant was the middle child or is that something we've all been assuming?

I think this comes from Emmanellain introducing himself as the second son--then immediately correcting it to second trueborn son, which is pretty close to a confirmation.

[Ayuhra]

Somewhat tangential but do we know for certain that Haurchefant was the middle child or is that something we've all been assuming?

We know for certain.

Journal entry for the Quest Over the Wall:

Ser Artoirel de Fortemps, eldest son of Count Edmont de Fortemps, did not expect to have company on his mission to aid houses Durendaire and Dzemael─a prospect he was not particularly enthusiastic about in the first place, given the ancient rivalries between Ishgard's noble families.

Emmanellain in the quest Onwards and Upwards

Ah, but where are my manners. Emmanellain de Fortemps, second son of Count Edmont de Fortemps—trueborn, that is.

[YuiKitahara]

Somewhat tangential but do we know for certain that Haurchefant was the middle child or is that something we've all been assuming?

I was playing in China server, in Chinese the dialog set it very clear. Artoirel told WoL that Haurchefant is his younger brother

[Cilia]

To be honest i got a suspicious vibe when i watched Artoriel through the 3.1 storyline, if you go and rewatch the cutscenes his father frowns at him when he speaks right before you enter the vault and Emmanellain who is usually very carefree and fun was absolutely livid at his brother by the end of the MSQ patch. ...I don't know man, It seems fishy!

I think people are thinking about this just a little too hard. Just a little.

If you'll remember, Artoriel was originally very headstrong and stubborn and insisted he didn't need our help. He actually admits that some part of him wanted us to fail and die on our co-op mission out in the Western Highlands because Haurchefant praised us so highly. Our success and conduct won him over during the mission, though, and he pledged not to doubt us again. He had a very professional demeanor, even if he was rather rude to us at first.

Emmanellain, on the other hand, was portrayed as a carefree fool. He is much kinder than Artoriel even in the beginning, but treats the mission like a game. After arriving at Camp Cloudtop and flirting with Lady Lainette, he's assigned surveillance - an unglamorous but necessary task - and he ends up getting captured by the Vundu. We go to rescue him, and he cowers behind us every step of the way during the escape. Once we return to the manor, he expects to be praised for his efforts and conduct, but ends up (rightfully) being scolded.

That's all we really saw of the two before 3.1.

As for Count Edmont, the Quest Log does indeed say that he regards Aymeric as a son. That said, at the present time it's rather understandable - he and Haurchefant are a lot alike in many ways. Aymeric has also been put into the position of being Ishgard's icon of hope, willingly or otherwise, and losing him would at present throw the nation into chaos. We also later learn that Edmont is going to step down as head of House Fortemps, so I'm willing to bet he was trying to impart some last wisdom to the young Lord Commander before he does so.

From all of this, what I can gather is...

Artoriel is hesitant of the change in Ishgard, but also accepting of the truth and willing to take up the burden of being Count so long as he has someone he can rely on to support him. He is afraid, but he's not going to let his fear stop him from doing what he believes is right for Ishgard. Many of the things he does here seem to be to prove to himself that, even if the title of Count is built on a lie, he has earned it. He doesn't want it to just be handed to him, and in the scenes with Count Edmont seems to be trying to gauge what exactly Edmont is trying to do.

Emmanellain, on the other hand, is probably not taking the change well. Compared to the other members of House Fortemps, he's rather cowardly - just a braggart, really. Honoroit also mentions usually having to comb the taverns to find him, so he's probably quite the drinker on top of it. I'd wager he's just trying to come to terms with everything, and isn't doing so quite as well as Artoriel. Having more responsibility put on him probably isn't going to end well unless it's done slowly as Edmont suggests. I think he is angry due to a number of factors, from Edmont being so close to Haurchefant despite the latter being a bastard child, to the endless praise he has for the Warrior of Light, to the regard he holds Aymeric in, to jealousy over Artoriel finding his conviction. Emmanellain seems confused and unsure of what to do or where he fits in, something I am all too familiar with.

That said, I don't think there's anything particularly bad brewing in House Fortemps. It's just a microcosm of the political strife within Ishgard if you ask me.

[Tenkuu]

Arguably that's why Alphinaud, Estinien, and Ysayle all become friends with the Warrior of Light to varying degrees - they treat you more like a person than a tool compared to how it was with the Scions' "Go kill this primal, Warrior of Light!"

I don't feel that it's right to call us a tool to them. If you want to say that anyone was a tool, it would more likely be the minor Scions hanging out in the storage room who get sent out on little missions. We are included among the major Scions, directly aided by them, and entrusted with some pretty important missions. They're not asking you to do anything without them, they're asking you to work with them, and since you're the one with both the Echo and the fighting abilities, your abilities are used in the best way by having you fight the Primals while the other Scions do what they excel at (other than normal combat) and gather information for you. Either way, we are never sent off on our own without any support.

Would it invalidate his death though? I mean we'd have an actual primal we would feel conflicted about putting down and it would be a smart move by the ascians since they're struggling in their fight against us. You'd have a primal that's more than just your typical Garuda, Titan, Ifrit ect. who are just sword fodder. Shiva was interesting and so was Ramuh since they were more complicated than just a standard primal. I mean I doubt SE would ever do it, but I don't see how it would invalidate his death considering he wouldn't be the Haurchefant we know but a mockery of his person, like Bahamut was according to Tiamat. In spirit Haurchefant would very much remain dead.

Keep in mind that no matter how conflicted we felt about Thancred's possession by Lahabrea (which of course Lahabrea used to twist the knife in the wound), we still would have been forced to kill him if we hadn't been able to save him. And no matter how one as the player might have felt about him, he was still a friend and comrade to their character, especially if they started in Ul'dah. You could say though that the primary reason for saving him was because Minfilia begged us to.

In this they showed that the soul becomes part of the great lifestream and maybe one day parts of it will go back and be reborn as another person. Later also we have the situation with Y`shtola who was in the lifestream for a short time but she said that she had a hard time to keep herself together.

These two things show me that this version of the afterlife does not include any kind of heaven. And that its quite likely that anyone that dies loose their own self and be united with the stream only to maybe one day be reborn again as a completely new person.

FFXIV's Lifestream is implied to work in much the same way as FFVII's, right? If so, we do know that strong souls keep their personalities and can freely navigate the Lifestream, such as Aerith and even Sephiroth (maybe even Zack to some extent), and other souls are merely part of the Lifestream, integrated into it, until they can be reborn. Since the Lifestream is the lifeblood of the planet in both series, it would make sense that rather than a meaningless heaven, it is instead a way for life to never truly end.

[Cilia]

I don't feel that it's right to call us a tool to them. If you want to say that anyone was a tool, it would more likely be the minor Scions hanging out in the storage room who get sent out on little missions. We are included among the major Scions, directly aided by them, and entrusted with some pretty important missions. They're not asking you to do anything without them, they're asking you to work with them, and since you're the one with both the Echo and the fighting abilities, your abilities are used in the best way by having you fight the Primals while the other Scions do what they excel at (other than normal combat) and gather information for you. Either way, we are never sent off on our own without any support.

You're missing the point (and running on one quote that doesn't exist in-game for your argument). While we are given support, we're still just following orders. Nobody really cares what we want.

Ilberd's comments on how we're just a tool during "Keeping the Flame Alive," combined with many of the things Fray says during the DRK 30-50 line, really hit close to home. Nobody really cares what we want - not the city-states, not the Scions, not even Hydaelyn Herself - only what we can do for them.

Even if we're provided support, we're still just a tool. (But this is really off-topic...)