Why so much hate against omnicrafting?

[-BlueGreen-]

I'm extremely disappointed with the fact that with 3.1 comes recipes that will be only available for certain specializations. It feels like SE has basically no clue what's really wrong with crafting and how to make it better. If desynthesis wasn't bad enough, crafting since 3.0 has been increasingly more painful.

Crafting is, without a doubt, the part of the game that really sold the game to me. In fact, I had multiple level 50 crafts prior to even beating Haukke Manor for the MSQ. When I do decide to fight stuff, I primarily run a scholar and I am involved in a static trying to clear A1S. Still, I see my combat roles as a kind of side show to my enjoyment in FFXIV. Primarily, I enjoy crafting and helping others, which often means being a reliable source of information and gear.

I've seen so many arguments speak out against omnicrafting, but I just don't see the substance to most of them:

Omnicrafters have a huge advantage in the markets because they don't have to buy materials from other crafters/gatherers.

If there's one thing I've learned from various MMOs, it's that merchanting players will always find a way to be rich. They don't need a system like crafting to play the markets and get rich. Specialization will do nothing to stop those who are determined be super rich from being super rich.

Gil aside, time is also a valuable resource that's often ignored. If I choose to not buy materials or sub components from other players, then that means I must spend time gathering and crafting those items myself. In the end, the number of items I could possibly produce in a given amount of time that way is far less than if I had bought some of those materials or sub components.

Lastly, this argument is also often applied with regards to item pricing where omnicrafters can sell items at lower prices still for decent profit. The problem I see with this is that high prices are generally bad all around. Non-crafters looking for gear for leveling purposes along with those working on crafting leve quests greatly benefit from lower prices on the market board. Lower prices also often increase the number of potential buyers which helps items sell quicker. This point is highlighted to an even greater degree thanks to the MSQ raining HQ leveling gear on players. Much of the unused gear ends up on the MB at prices that are hard to compete with since 3.0 made crafting a much more costly endeavor. If, as an omnicrafter, I don't see much room to compete with the MSQ reward surplus, I doubt a non-omnicrafter would either.

Specialization helps non-omnicrafters stay competitive with omnicrafters.

Sure would be nice if it actually worked that way. It might actually help to get more people into crafting. The problem is, the specialist skills are pretty much garbage forcing you to still rely on a large number of cross class skills to handle any real crafting.

In my opinion, specialization should have given skills that so powerful that without any cross class kills at all, a player could generally HQ any craft. This would mean:

• Players leveling 1-3 crafting classes would be able to craft anything from those classes without making them feel like they must level other crafting classes. This would greatly benefit those who limit their crafting for RP purposes or because of time constraints.
• An omnicrafter working outside of a specialty competing against a non-omnicrafter working within their specialty would do so on equal footing.
• An omnicrafter working within one of their chosen specialties would possibly have a much easier time. Honestly I see nothing wrong with it as they did take extra time to level multiple classes for that bonus. On the other hand, specialist actions could also just be made in such a way to conflict with cross-class skills (such as making them work like battle classes and simply disallow cross class skills with the stone equipped).

For the above to work, however, SE would have to make sure that even the hardest crafts should be doable with either all cross class skills available (without specialization skills) or with specialization (without cross class skills).

Basically, if we continue down the current route, omnicrafters will either level alts to cover everything or be forced to specialize and give up a part of what they like to do. Players that do specialize without leveling other crafting classes continue being at a disadvantage because the existing skills don't make up for the lack of cross class skill. Additionally, players with a casual interest in crafting remain at a distance because they continue to face the reality that they'd have to spend a lot of time (or gil) to level multiple crafting classes to significant levels just to have a shot of being good at 1 or 2. Seriously, who actually wins in the current setup?

These changes will help force omnicrafters to interact more with other players and cooperate.

This is honestly a terrible argument I've seen from time to time. If omnicrafters truly didn't interact with anyone, they wouldn't have any impact in the community or market board at all. That's obviously not the case or it would imply that people that make this argument are simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

Instead of helping with cooperation, I see this as hurting it. From the beginning, I recognized FFXIV's crafting system as being something complicated enough and time consuming enough that a very significant part of the player base would not have much interest in getting involved in it. Omnicrafting, for me, was the natural solution to finding my place in the game as I could be my FC's one-stop shop for leveling gear at prices that wouldn't break the bank. In fact, I've spent so much time helping out FC mates with gear and such that I haven't capped Esos in months (with several weeks of earning exactly 0). If SE continues to harm omnicrafting, this will eventually lead to people like me having to simply say "sorry, can't do that craft at all" forcing them to have to go to someone else and probably pay a ridiculous price. If I do that enough times, people will begin to forget that I craft at all, at which point my interaction with others suffers. Of course, you could just say that other FC members could step up and specialize in the other crafting classes, but that's unlikely to work unless the FC had a bunch of omnicrafters to begin with. My FC, for instance, only has one other omnicrafter, but they aren't very active currently. The other members who have leveled some crafting classes lack the cross class skills to work on anything important and don't have the time or motivation to level more crafting classes.

[AnnietheCat]

The over-reliance of cross class skills in crafting sort of makes omnicrafting a necessity for those of us who are primarily crafters. I take a lot of pride in crafting my fc members pieces of furniture that they want or gear that they need. I enjoy putting rarer, more expensive crafts on the mb to sell. But leveling multiple classes can be a huge gil sink and many people just find crafting to be boring. So now by forcing us to choose three classes to main, they're saying that all the work we put in leveling for those cross class skills (which SE made a necessity in the first place) was wrong. Now, they suddenly don't like omnicrafters. I get it. I do. Omnicrafters are almost completely self sufficient. I mean, I'm not an OC yet ( but I'm well on my way), but I don't have a massive horde of gil(what people claim this system is trying to fight). A lot of omnicrafters don't have a massive amount of gil. In fact, all of the raiders I know have more gil than all of the OCs that I know. This system is just making the handful of people who loved crafting feel alienated and unwilling to continue participating(or at least the ones that I know).

TL;DR Omnicrafters aren't the problem when it comes to community and gil hording, and this system won't solve the economy problems

[shanian]

specialization wont affect much, i mean its not like they are locking half the recipes avaiable to a single craft. their locking 4-5 items, at least right now. and its not even a permanent thing. just like you atm have a some recipes locked behind a master book. at least on this patch that seems to be i185 gear only (if are even those that are specialized), thats just gonna end up beeing for glamour, because everyone will have acess to higher ranked gear wit the cap removal on alexander normal.
it wont suddenly change the game and hurt all of those that dont choose a specialization. i seen several crafters that have stuck with only 1 or two crafts and are fine with it, because they dont want the hassle that means having more crafts (yes you can synth it all, but it does take a toll, specially inventory wise), with specializationt hey will stick to those same classes, this wont really affect them.

[AnnietheCat]

Yes, you can just have one to two DoH classes. But for end game crafting, for the people who are "career crafters" like me and OP, you absolutely need the cross class skills. There are multiple threads explaining 1-4 star crafting rotations(especially for hq and for collectables). CCS's are definitely a necessity. Sure, a lot isn't changing right now with specialization. But for any recipes to be intentionally gated to discourage omnicrafting is unfair to those of us who choose to omnicraft. Time is a valuable resource, especially in this game; for us to choose our own play style and then be introduced to a mechanic that discourages the way we choose to(and pay to) play the game is something worth bringing attention to. Does it affect much right now? No. Will it? Potentially. And if we wait on that potential eventuality to express our feelings on it, it would be too late. If they'd like to discourage omnicrafting, I wouldn't be upset if they made it so that we don't need cross class skills. I don't enjoy leveling ARM, BSM, or CUL(especially not CUL, despite it being the most profitable class on siren right now), and yet some of the skills are deemed necessary for end game crafting. In short, either find another way to make specialization relevant or get rid of the ridiculously heavy reliance on cross class skills; this, however, won't discourage the super rich players from being super rich(like OP said), nor will it help crafters(except to make more money due to the fact that only their class can craft the most profitable items(potentially)). Not to be a negative nancy, but this isn't a good system. A lot of things are starting to look like bad design these days, tbh.

[Alx789]

I think that reason is more prosaic. SE is interested to motivate players to play as long as possible. And they should have what to do. So, ARR crafters were motivated to levelup 8-10 classes due to crossklass skills. Single 50 class in ARR could miss crosskil and became unable to craft star items. HW added some crosskills, so omnicraft is not dead. Soul system has some motivation elements. If u want to change soul - it costs 480 reds. A lot of gametime.

[CatfishCassie]

Players leveling 1-3 crafting classes would be able to craft anything from those classes without making them feel like they must level other crafting classes. This would greatly benefit those who limit their crafting for RP purposes or because of time constraints.

This. This is exactly what Specialties were pitched as being about. There were also not supposed to be any specialist recipes at all... specialties were added to even the playing field between those that had time to get all their crafts to 50 and those that did not. They failed to do that because Specialty skills are too gimmicky and RNG dependent to be used, and very few of the specialty skills actually do their job in replacing cross-class skills from other classes. Whistle While You Work is a great idea for all those 100 durability items we craft... except we don't have any of those... we have 80 and 70 and 40 and 35 durability items. To put it bluntly, the Specialist skills are skills that are optimally designed for crafts that don't exist.

That said... switching specialties isn't particularly difficult, so I'm not really sure what kind of a negative impact specialist crafts will actually have on omnicrafters. At worst, I'm going to have to make a few items for scrips to swap between them, and I might put a bit more forethought into what I'm making for the week... but I don't see it keeping me from being able to craft everything in the game still... just slowing me down a bit.

Also... I don't think omnicrafters participate less in the market than non-omnicrafters do... and I say this as someone who both has an omnicrafter and an alt who's just a lvl 50 leatherworker. When I need something on my omnicrafter, lots of times I'll go gather it myself and craft the components myself... but if I have the money and the parts are cheap enough (as determined by supply and demand), I'll buy them off the market. More buyers on the market drives up prices and drives omnicrafters out of the market again... so omnicrafters aren't "non-participants", they're equilibrium adjusters that come in and keep materials from bottoming out too low for non-omnicrafters to make a decent profit off of them.

Likewise, with my lvl 50 leatherworker, if I have the money, I buy components off the market... but when I don't have money, and can't make them myself, I ask guildmates or my crafting linkshell to make the items for me (transferring items from my omnicrafting character is too much of a hassle unless I have no other alternative). So, even when I don't have all the skills, my participation in the market is determined by supply and demand, and drops if the prices go too high. If anything, finding a way to force omnicrafters to participate in the market would only stagnate the market by vastly increasing demand relative to supply, and there would likely be quite a bit of lag time before the supply would catch up.

That's the other thing about economic arguments that people tend to forget about... it's not just regular crafters and omnicrafters... the other two legs of this economy are raiders and gatherers. Raiders get dropped resources that are essential for many of the high end crafts that crafters make, and gatherers drive the lion's share of supply and demand. If you want to fix crafter participation in the market, you're really looking at increasing drop rates and gathering rates to allow those groups of players to increase the relative supply and bring the prices for items down to a level that crafters deem reasonable. This is especially the case when it comes to the crafting items from Favor gathering that, 5 months after Heavensward launched, are still in the millions each on some servers.

[MN_14]

This. This is exactly what Specialties were pitched as being about. There were also not supposed to be any specialist recipes at all... specialties were added to even the playing field between those that had time to get all their crafts to 50 and those that did not. They failed to do that because Specialty skills are too gimmicky and RNG dependent to be used, and very few of the specialty skills actually do their job in replacing cross-class skills from other classes.

I believe they were planning on specialist recipes months before HW launched, but held back on them until they received a lot of requests following it's launch. The main problem with specialization is that it can be combined with all of your cross class skills, meaning that the developers had to design them in a way that allows a single class crafter to HQ high level recipes, yet not completely break the balance for crafters who do use level 50 cross class abilities.

They technically do work with a single class under average RNG (I've experimented with a 1* recipe from 0 quality and can confirm that you can HQ it without level 50 skills), but if unlucky, you'll run into problems with CP, and the cost of delineations will add up. As a result, the crafting process is more difficult, expensive, and unpredictable. Reclaim (a Level 50 cross class skill) will also likely be required at times to salvage your crafts unless you're willing to accept the occasional NQ product.

[shanian]

sorry couldnt finish my post earlier so here it goes the rest (daily limits ><
i find it ok, that they give each craft a special thing of their own, with specialization. give it a few months and they will probably remove red scrips cap, and one will be able to switch between them all with a little effort.
i'm a omnicrafter, i can do every single 2 star lv 60 synth, got all master books etc etc. do i enjoy beeing able to have full acess to everything? yes, but i can tell you also i have not synthed every single item from lv1 to 60** list, maybe i have done 90% of them. do i find the fact that 5 synths from other crafts may be locked away from my acess upsetting? not really, there will be a high chance that i wouldnt make them anyway, wont know till we know exactly wich they are. this doesnt really destroy OC in any way, its not like has a specialist you cannot use cross skills. it is possible to hq things with just 1 craft, it just takes effort.. a lot of it, but its possible.
ps: they do need to better up the specilist skills though.

[AnnietheCat]

Yes but it's a few recipes for right now. It will be more later. It's always more later. I understand that they want to bring the community together. But for me, being an omnicrafter is the best route for me to take. I don't particularly enjoy doing content with strangers(via the DF), so I picked up crafting to fill my time while I waited for my friends and husband to log in. The problem with relying on other crafters comes with the issue of them taking a break from the game at any time for any reason. Sure, I can ask my husband to turn his lvl 60 BSM into his specialist, but he's been on hiatus for two months now. My friend, who's a lvl 52 ARM, had to take a hiatus due to console failure while we were in the middle of a company project, which made me spend three days leveling my ARM to 50 so that I can do the turn ins. Relying on others means you are at the mercy of their whims. New game comes out and they leave? Welp, there goes your CRP specialist. Pre-patchmas lull and they unsub until the new patch comes out? Oops, your GSM specialist is gone. Each server's economy can be vastly different. But on many servers, this has a huge chance of being exploited; larger FCs and people who already have a super tight knit group that also crafts can(and sometimes will) run the market board, especially in this new system. The problems that exist with crafting won't be solved by an exclusionary system like this. Had they just done what was intended and made it to where we didn't need the cross class skills from other crafting classes, that would have been more than enough to discourage omnicrafting. I mean, if the specialist skills did that, what reason would new blood have for omnicrafting? I sure as hell didn't want to put the time into leveling up all of the classes, and here we are, all because I need the skills to make my multi-star items and master crafts. All of my crafting friends feel the same way. And nearly all of them have stopped crafting because of the direction this system is headed in.

The problem is that SE won't stop gating unnecessary things. There's not enough housing for people and personal housing costs as much as fc housing. There's a level requirement on buying a personal room in a house. These supposedly teensy tiny details that don't really effect the game much at all make a huge difference to those of us who are here for things like RP or just supporting friends by crafting or for those FC's who want to buy all of their members personal rooms but can't until each one hits level 50. There's so much going wrong, and many many people feel the same way about specialist gated crafting. And for those of us who don't have hours upon hours each and every night to sink into the game, 480 red scrips just to change specialization is a lot of time and effort wasted. I'm not saying the problems with crafting or any area of this game are easily fixed; I just honestly believe we're being treated as though we're too stupid to know what it is we want to see from something we pay to supposedly enjoy.

(as an aside, even with so many DoHs leveled up, sometimes I just get really lazy and buy the things off the MB instead of spending the time and mats to make them myself. I'm pretty broke because I get lazy a bit too much....I'm so ashamed lol. When I sell pricey items I just leave them there until they finally sell; idc about how fast they move or about undercutting at all. They'll sell when they sell.)

[jomoru]

The whole concept of specialization is a joke. Weaver gets a whole bunch of glamour and even potentially useful stuff... ALchemy gets a single outdoor tree. YAY