3.1 PLD changes look good

**Donjo** · 11-07-2015 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Jican

So you're mainly saying is it's fine because we waiting this long, hold out for something else that MAY or may not change for the better? I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that logic. Dragging your group down overall simply because is never ok, especially when it's an ongoing problem with no concrete evidence that there is a better change on the horizon.

Things are so screwed up at this point that it will be nearly impossible to make a change that isn't an improvement.

Regardless, what will most certainly happen is something that will affect all three tanks. It's a reckless folly to make a significant change to any of them with something like this on the horizon, especially when 3.1 will give everyone greater opportunities to get the amount of gear necessary to minimize the trouble any particular job conveys.

**Callidus** · 11-07-2015 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Donjo

Regardless, what will most certainly happen is something that will affect all three tanks. It's a reckless folly to make a significant change to any of them with something like this on the horizon, especially when 3.1 will give everyone greater opportunities to get the amount of gear necessary to minimize the trouble any particular job conveys.

Only if you're making the assumption that the planned changes don't impact the tanks equally. If they simply fiddle around with how attack is calculated for tanks based on existing primary stats, as it seems most people are guessing at this point, then that change would impact all of them nearly the same.

If that turns out to be the case, tweaking some potency or changing an enmity modifier here and there to even DPS and threat capabilities for PLD relative to the other tanks wouldn't be a big deal; the changes would scale right along. If anything, it would make more sense to me to get the relative DPS and enmity about where you want it, then do the across the board adjustments to how damage is calculated for all three of them.

**ricklessabandon** · 11-07-2015 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by ManaKing

There are too many angry people complaining and not enough people showing appreciation when things are improved.

I think a lot of the dissatisfaction is from the assessment that things aren't improved. Honestly this is the first time I've they've missed their mark entirely with a change. Not that I disagree with the mark, or would have liked more, that they aren't accomplishing the things they said they wanted to accomplish. This is confusing and frustrating, and is exacerbated by the fact that every PLD has their own personal grievances list and many of those long-standing sentiments went unaddressed when their job finally got changes.

I play with several tanks that primarily want to play PLD and feel they can't and that S-E isn't really in a rush to resolve that (or even validate the feeling). After seeing the 3.1 changes I'm legitimately worried that the trust burned here may cause them to churn. It's unfortunate, and was avoidable.

**ManaKing** · 11-07-2015 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by ricklessabandon

Honestly this is the first time I've they've missed their mark entirely with a change.

I play with several tanks that primarily want to play PLD and feel they can't and that S-E isn't really in a rush to resolve that (or even validate the feeling). After seeing the 3.1 changes I'm legitimately worried that the trust burned here may cause them to churn. It's unfortunate, and was avoidable.

Bold: Really? you think that AST hasn't been SE fumbling and tripping over itself? SE has messed up before, just not on a job that is super popular like PLD. PLD is off by an insignificant fraction that is highlighted by number chasers that don't like that PLD can't win the pissing contest against either DRK or WAR. AST on the other hand is 2/3rds of a job at best.

Trust wasn't burned here, SE said we are going to give PLD small upgrades but they aren't going to make it the same job as every other tank. They take our feedback seriously, but it's still their game and they can design jobs however they want at the end of the day. The only thing that got broken was people's expectations for PLD to come back into the status of being the dominant tank in the game. They've made it pretty clear the content will wax and wane each tank's usefulness. Once we hit the raids that have nothing but physical bruisers, you will be happy to have a PLD as a MT. With the changes they are making in 3.1, it should be easy for them to keep hate while still using higher DPS rotation.

The transparency of this game is miles ahead of almost any other online game.

**NFaelivrin** · 11-07-2015 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by ManaKing

The only thing that got broken was people's expectations for PLD to come back into the status of being the dominant tank in the game.

Why is it always people with warrior or marauder set as their main class in the forum who say this nonsense. People who you know, main the objectively dominant, best, most powerful tank class in the game, by a huge margin.

You know what people's expectations are? To be able to play Paladin in this game's terrible current raid without being a burden to your team. Paladin was "The dominant tank in the game" for a period of time of roughly a couple months and ended in 2.1 when Warrior was made an incredibly powerful class on its own right, making it just as necessary as Paladins for raids. Let 2.0 go. It was two years ago.

**ArdorGrey** · 11-07-2015 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Why is it always people with warrior or marauder set as their main class in the forum who say this nonsense. People who you know, main the objectively dominant, best, most powerful tank class in the game, by a huge margin.

You know what people's expectations are? To be able to play Paladin in this game's terrible current raid without being a burden to your team. Paladin was "The dominant tank in the game" for a period of time of roughly a couple months and ended in 2.1 when Warrior was made an incredibly powerful class on its own right, making it just as necessary as Paladins for raids. Let 2.0 go. It was two years ago.

Are you joking? War wasn't even needed in half the content. And in the other half when a pld MT actually tried to push dps they could MT full time in SwO after voking off a War opener.

You're either completely ignorant of your own classes strength in 2.x, or you view that as "balance"- when your tank is the de facto MT and the other tank is either dropped for a fifth dps or is your opener and slash debuff/path boy. Either way, please get real. You had an entire xpac cycle in the sun. War shines for one patch and everyone wants to tear them back down to that eye/storm peon position.

If this is more "biggotted assumptive whatever and ever" please, educate me on where I'm biggotted and assumptive.

**NFaelivrin** · 11-08-2015 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

You're either completely ignorant of your own classes strength in 2.x, or you view that as "balance"- when your tank is the de facto MT and the other tank is either dropped for a fifth dps or is your opener and slash debuff/path boy. Either way, please get real. You had an entire xpac cycle in the sun. War shines for one patch and everyone wants to tear them back down to that eye/storm peon position.

People who think WAR didn't make a great MT in 2.X after it was fixed are hilariously wrong, I did T12 with WAR MT and there were absolutely no problems whatsoever because all of WARs defensive cooldowns have higher uptime than PLD's and are only marginally weaker. WAR could easily solo tank the, well, solotankeable turns of SCOB just as well as PLD, people just were very slow to notice just how good WAR was.

**Reynhart** · 11-08-2015 03:37 AM

Originally Posted by ArdorGrey

Are you joking? War wasn't even needed in half the content. And in the other half when a pld MT actually tried to push dps they could MT full time in SwO after voking off a War opener.

Now that the "WAR is not supposed to be MT" mentality is gone, you just have to do some tests.
Go in lvl50 synced at the lowest ilvl or, at least, gear available when the content was released, and I'm pretty sure you'll realize you can tank anything as good as a PLD.

**Sleigh** · 11-07-2015 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by ManaKing

3.0 switched to DRK because i took 1 look at WARs abilities and noticed none of them were defensive cooldowns or interesting.

Not to nit-pick but this is pretty much completely opposite the truth. WAR gained Equilibrium and Raw Intuition, the latter of which really completed WAR's arsenal of having a nice set of CDs to use without relying on Defiance/Inner Beast. Technically Deliverance is also a bit of a defense boost in practice as you can now OT and then when you need to MT, you can start with an instant Inner Beast without blowing your Infuriate.

I think WAR got some of the most exciting, interesting skills post-50 of any class, personally. Nice mix of offense and defense, especially because with Bloodbath, Fell Cleave and Decimate have insane HPS capabilities.

On topic:

I am on the side of the fence that these changes are completely underwhelming. I do not believe Sword Oath PLD will reach DRK/WAR DPS even with perfect Shield Swiping RNG. Also, if you want to get into what DRK vs PLD does for the group's DPS, DRK allows you to, without detriment to healer DPS or raid survivability, drop MNK in favor of NIN - that's just one of the biggest, widely unsung disadvantages to PLD, a crippling issue I believe would persist even if somehow PLD matched or beat the other two tanks in personal DPS. The TP fix is possibly one of the worst, most cautious, ineffective "fixes" I have ever seen in FFXIV history to a widely accepted issue, and it's about as far from what I expected they'd change as can be. If it was going to be one skill to get lower, it should have AT LEAST been Savage Blade, as that would hit two combos rather than once every 21-24s.

Perhaps A5-8 will make DRK a genuine survivability risk compared to PLD and only DPS pushers will pursue it while DRK is getting rocked by an onslaught of Flatten level tank busters, but I'll have to see it to believe it.

**Reynhart** · 11-07-2015 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by ManaKing

Total ignorance and disrespect to just properly quote someone so I'll just do the same for the sake of space

Actually, you don't understand anything of the situation...

PLD don't want to be the 'absolute best tank in the game' /background_thunder. We want to be as useful as any other tank.

In 2.x WAR was NOT behind PLD. It was a very wrong hunch that WAR was "difficult to heal". And on top of that, WAR and PLD each had one spot where their DPS beat the other (WAR as MT, PLD as OT). And the game was more focused on mechanics that pure DPS check. And stacking jobs was a bad idea.

Now, WAR is on top either as MT or OT in regards to DPS, games is more focused on DPS than everything else, you can bring two tanks without a PLD AND without stacking and content is clearly designed to ignore some of PLDs skill just so that DRK feels like a very useful tank. See a little difference here ?

Thread: 3.1 PLD changes look good

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