Thread: 3.1 PLD Changes

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Clemency is far too long to cast to be an emergency heal, and no healer will really count on you for healing someone else.

There are reasons Clemency is inconvenient to use. Firstly so that raids don't start forcing their tanks to start healing (this is something I absolutely hated in 1.0, so I'm happy it's gone). Secondly because the heal is relatively strong and even when not used on someone else, easy use of Clemency would notably bump PLD survivability. I'm not entirely against changing Clemency, but if you want to make it easy to use then it needs a cooldown or some other limitation (like consuming your entire MP bar and letting you only be able to cast it when your MP is at 50% of your total MP). Turning it into something akin to Lay On Hands would also be an option (provided they keep the cooldown).

Awareness was...useful (I guess) in T11...except than since the ensured critical hit was an AoE, the party had to mitigate the damage anyway, and it was after an add phase, not really damage heavy on the tank.

I got nothing on this. Awareness is a wasted ability slot, but most of us know that already.

Blind ? Most bosses are immune.

Blinding boss mobs would be overpowered.

Pacification ? Same.

This would also be overpowered.

Chain Stun ? Either immune, or only requires one precise Stun less often than 30s, so other tanks are better since they're not delayed by GCD.

This is largely a result of the poor way the developers have implemented interrupts into the game. They also have to space out interrupts where applicable because of stun diminishing returns/immunity (an issue that wouldn't exist if we had real interrupts).

I didn't play PLD on A3, but I wouldn't be surprised if Ferrofluid just plain ignores Tempered Will, like Typhoon does.

Eh, I'm willing to make concessions on mechanics not allowing me to cheese them, so I wouldn't be too heartbroken if that were the case.

Originally Posted by Duelle

There are reasons Clemency is inconvenient to use. Firstly so that raids don't start forcing their tanks to start healing (this is something I absolutely hated in 1.0, so I'm happy it's gone). Secondly because the heal is relatively strong and even when not used on someone else, easy use of Clemency would notably bump PLD survivability.

Isn't survivability...supposed to be our thing ? And frankly, raids force their tank to DPS, so, why not heal ?
We could legitimately say "You don't want to play a tank that heal ? Then don't play PLD" like you wouldn't play WAR if you don't want others expecting you to do great DPS.

Originally Posted by Duelle

Blinding boss mobs would be overpowered.

No, it wouldn't. It's not like Blind makes everything automatically miss. It's exactly like an Evasion boost, but for the other part of the equation. It was useful against Titan HM, to dodge Moutain Buster (God, it felt so satysfying ), but not to the point of breaking the game.

Originally Posted by Duelle

pacification would also be overpowered.

How ? It's only a form of interruption, and you can't spam it. But if you really think it's too much, replace it with a few seconds of reduced damaged, like reprisal. Again, reducing damage is supposed to be OUR thing.

Originally Posted by Duelle

They also have to space out interrupts where applicable because of stun diminishing returns/immunity (an issue that wouldn't exist if we had real interrupts).

You see, the fun part is that bosses build absolutely no resist on some debuffs. Storm's Eye and Path are always fully applied, Reprisal, too...

Originally Posted by Cheraa

...oh wait, I'm out of Mana after two Clemency? Can't heal again for ~6-7 GCD.

Fun fact : Riot Blade and Syphon Strike have exactly the same purpose. But, not only is Syphon Strike stronger, it also gives back the exact cost of one Unleash, whereas one Riot Blade does not compensate for the cost of one Flash...just...why ? (Keep in mind that Flash and Unleash cost the same)

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Isn't survivability...supposed to be our thing ? And frankly, raids force their tank to DPS, so, why not heal?

We already have plenty of survivability via our cooldowns. And there's a lot of things wrong with a tank being forced to DPS in raids the way this game does. The tank focuses on surviving and holding aggro, not doing the healer's job for them.

No, it wouldn't. It's not like Blind makes everything automatically miss. It's exactly like an Evasion boost, but for the other part of the equation. It was useful against Titan HM, to dodge Moutain Buster (God, it felt so satysfying ), but not to the point of breaking the game.

Trivializing boss abilities, even in an RNG fashion the way Blind would allow, is simply too much. Which to me is not that different from asking to be able to stun/silence Judgement Nisi or Ravana's liberation attacks.

How? It's only a form of interruption, and you can't spam it. But if you really think it's too much, replace it with a few seconds of reduced damaged, like reprisal. Again, reducing damage is supposed to be OUR thing.

Now you're talking about changing the effects of Shield Swipe as a whole. I'm not opposed to this per se, but that's a discussion for another topic.

You see, the fun part is that bosses build absolutely no resist on some debuffs. Storm's Eye and Path are always fully applied, Reprisal, too...

You missed my point. You'd see a wider use of interrupt mechanics if they weren't status effects that lasted a couple of seconds. Raids used to have to work out interrupt rotations (which largely involved the melee DPS in the raid) for bosses in WoW because those fights were tuned around the raid interrupting certain boss abilities to actually get the clear (whose use range from mitigating tank/raid damage like with Kel'thuzad or avoiding effects that created massive inconveniences to the raid like with General Vezzax).

Originally Posted by Reynhart

I think "focuses" is a tricky word. Yes, it's the main goal of the tank, but it's also its most basic role. So, again, if you don't offer something else, you'll always be less interesting.

Mileage varies. I'm perfectly happy with tanking being about holding aggro and surviving hits. I'm also happy with utility being optional and not mandatory, since utility should never take away from your main role. Which means if you're a tank and happen to have heals, those heals have to come at an opportunity cost and be inconvenient enough to not intrude on what you're there to do. It's one of those things that come with being or leaning towards being hybrid (the latter being the case for PLD), hence why I have trouble understanding how people continue to struggle with the concept.

Technically, if Blind really affects the ability, it means that there is an Accuracy check. So, there is a slight chance that you could dodge the ability, even without Blind. Since most of physical abilities can be parried or blocked, we can assume that the parry/block check are rolled, and thus that the Accuracy check is not bypassed. If we never saw a Dodge on physical buster, maybe those buster have an accuracy bonus so high that you ensure 100% hit. This way, Blind could help mitigate lower hits, without trivializing tank busters.

Boss damage output is tuned around all its abilities, not just tank busters. Trivializing any major hit or ability would still be too much. Toying with accuracy in this case would get a pass if we were talking about dodging auto attacks, but auto-attacks from boss mobs don't really matter here the way they do in other games.

Since Titan seems to be a popular example, even if you're not trivializing (AKA entirely avoiding or negating) the damage from Mountain Buster, you also have stuff like Rock Buster and Tumult to worry about. And chances are the expected damage tanks take per the design involve those abilities, not just whether the tank survives Mountain Buster or not. Hence why trivializing ANY aspect of the fight outside of abilities that the raid has to react to is too much (imagine if for example, Pacification prevented Titan from using Tumult; that's a shit ton of raid damage you're trivializing over the course of the fight). It'd be another story if the fight had been designed so that, say, the raid had to absolutely interrupt every Landslide (which instead of a line ability would be something that covers the entire arena) in order to get the clear. Then the strategy prioritizes getting through phases and DPS (or whomever has the plentiful interrupts) interrupting what they need to interrupt in order to actually kill Titan.

Well, I wasn't really debating on your point. It just reminded me that PLD is the only tank whose most debuffs can be fully resisted after a while. So, even our situationnal utility is further weakened...

As I said, there is such a thing as leeway to prevent cheesing boss fights.