Thread: 3.1 PLD Changes

Originally Posted by Yonanja

I'm going to stop argueing with you after this post, since you're obviously in favor of class inbalance and "flavor of the month", for some strange reason. It's made obvious by your examples, since nothing you've put forward would make the inbalance less, just shift it around.

But as you seem to only listen to the voice of YoshiP, who've said ALOT of things that turned out not to be even close to the real result, I don't think that there is any point in continuing to argue with you. Let's just agree to disagree, and you can keep enjoying your inbalanced classes and FotM, and I can keep on hating it.

Brian has mentioned constantly a lack of content-based balancing in game; the examples that can be given from in-game, therefore, lack overall balance, even if certain parts of those examples point at possible better designs. Individually, these examples, each taken from a small part of existent encounters might imply FotM choices. But if the overall balance of each encounter were improved, such that each tank would have a relatively equal value across (all parts of) the encounter through their various, different advantages, leaving no clear FotM choice. This seems pretty clear. It's just a different way of balancing the jobs (and, frankly, accessory choice) without having to homogenize them. Nor is it mutually exclusive with class changes. It is simply another avenue for providing balance, and one that SE has actually admitted their faults in with this last tier. True balance will likely still take a bit of tuning on the job side as well. But to design content that actually makes use of their differences, as in entirely unique strengths rather than just difference in strengths in common among all three, increases the ways we have to retain tank identity without leaving one or more behind.

Not trying to be defensive, especially in regards to a post that is not my own, but it seems unreasonable to push aside what, as far as I can see, is a very valid main point, and with it the entire other half of job design (the environments they work in).

Originally Posted by Dhex

They aren't forcing balance. They've got imbalance - an imbalance that is going to persist over an 8-month period. They've got a gaping hole between Paladin and the other two tanks. Warrior has a guaranteed raid slot.

Originally Posted by Brian_

Except they are not trying to force more imbalance, they are trying to force balance.

We've established that the current meta stinks and most likely these changes will do little to fix it. The point is what they could do. But can we really say that even if PLD is given as much MT (assuming Grit/Def/Shield) dps as DRK or WAR, and if it somehow gained DRK or WAR-level AoE, it would be taken? It would still ultimately be burdened with abilities that see little to no use in most situations. If we are to follow the general assuption (e.g. in Bards/MCHs) that having these utility options will have cost you elsewhere, however faintly, but should improve the situation of the raid as a whole through their/your being present and able, then those abilities cannot just go unused. PLD abilities may well need changes to cast and recast times, CDs, range, and costs, but they'll also likely need places where they provide a noticeable benefit, rather than just just a slightly greater raid healing/mitigation output, etc. (and whatever opportunities that gives), than they could put out personal dps for the time being, especially given that they've been stuck in a least favored position for months.

For instance, I'd like to see SB's enmity mod and RoH's potency boosted slightly for more enmity output. Due to personal preference, I'd have preferred to see Shield Swipe boosted to 220 potency rather than being made an oGCD, and for Shield Oath to no longer reduce Shield-based damage (as an oGCD, our TP problems will merely have worsened in a few cases, and dungeon runs just got a lot more annoying without Swipe's refresh component). For the purpose of some goddamn AoE damage, I'd have liked to see some other change to our "Shield" abilities (be it Oath, Swipe, and/or Bash) to provide that AoE at least in MT position. I'd like for Flash to remain relevant (for more than just enmity). But even after all those changes might go out and PLD is arguably "not shit", even if each of its abilities were individually worthy, whether a PLD gets to go in depends on the fight itself. Even if I were to try my hardest to balance PLD and fill its needs, I won't actually know what needs those are (beyond general competence, while hopefully retaining uniqueness/identity) until the next tier of content (partly because I don't know whether SE will be able to really balance said tier, and suspect that if they do more or less manage to 'balance' it, that balance will rely on general measures and by avoiding challenges that would make any differences apparent, rather than simply trying to present a near-equal total of uniquely advantageous situations).

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Brian has mentioned constantly a lack of content-based balancing in game; the examples that can be given from in-game, therefore, lack overall balance, even if certain parts of those examples point at possible better designs. Individually, these examples, each taken from a small part of existent encounters might imply FotM choices. But if the overall balance of each encounter were improved, such that each tank would have a relatively equal value across (all parts of) the encounter through their various, different advantages, leaving no clear FotM choice. This seems pretty clear. It's just a different way of balancing the jobs (and, frankly, accessory choice) without having to homogenize them. Nor is it mutually exclusive with class changes.

There will always be a superior choice when you take this approach. You can try to create a scenario where different advantages help in leading to the clear in different ways, but once people figure out the best way to do it, that will become the standard. That's just an aspect of human nature that is part of the landscape in ANYTHING that involves more than one player.

And why are we going back to demonizing performance parity? Especially when the lack of performance parity is one of the main culprits behind the problems we're currently seeing (encounter design being another)?

It is simply another avenue for providing balance, and one that SE has actually admitted their faults in with this last tier. True balance will likely still take a bit of tuning on the job side as well. But to design content that actually makes use of their differences, as in entirely unique strengths rather than just difference in strengths in common among all three, increases the ways we have to retain tank identity without leaving one or more behind.

Class identity can still come from mechanics, abilities and aesthetics while still remaining equal to other members of the roster in performance. Are you really that bothered by WAR and DRK dealing the same damage as a PLD?

But can we really say that even if PLD is given as much MT (assuming Grit/Def/Shield) dps as DRK or WAR, and if it somehow gained DRK or WAR-level AoE, it would be taken? It would still ultimately be burdened with abilities that see little to no use in most situations.

Which is not a bad thing. The utility PLD was given is not the type that is or should be needed all the time. This is why I facepalm at the people who complain about Clemency not being a mandatory ability in the rotation (it's situational off-healing, emphasis on situational) and those that expect Divine Veil to be up all the time, every time (because expecting to do so would be like expecting this or this to be used every time it's up instead of during oh-shit moments).

Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

As sad as this makes me it does not suprise me anyone who played FFXI pre expansion knows SE doesnt care about paladin much, in that game ninja tanks were gods in comparison to paladins they could do great dps evade 95% of attacks and debuff paladins did no dps took massive damage and in exchange they could cast 2-3 heals per mana bar

Even back in FFXI, people asked more and more to buff PLD's damage.
And even back then, I thought that it was stupid. For me, PLD don't need to lean on the DPS side, but on the healing side. Make it so that a good PLD doesn't need a dedicated healer.

Which, by the way, was possible in FFXI, either with Ochain + Shield Mastery + DNC Subjob. Or by combining bonus to cure potency/cure received, and items that gives you MP back whenever you take damage.