Thread: 3.1 PLD Changes

Originally Posted by Yonanja

I'm going to stop argueing with you after this post, since you're obviously in favor of class inbalance and "flavor of the month", for some strange reason. It's made obvious by your examples, since nothing you've put forward would make the inbalance less, just shift it around.

But as you seem to only listen to the voice of YoshiP, who've said ALOT of things that turned out not to be even close to the real result, I don't think that there is any point in continuing to argue with you. Let's just agree to disagree, and you can keep enjoying your inbalanced classes and FotM, and I can keep on hating it.

Brian has mentioned constantly a lack of content-based balancing in game; the examples that can be given from in-game, therefore, lack overall balance, even if certain parts of those examples point at possible better designs. Individually, these examples, each taken from a small part of existent encounters might imply FotM choices. But if the overall balance of each encounter were improved, such that each tank would have a relatively equal value across (all parts of) the encounter through their various, different advantages, leaving no clear FotM choice. This seems pretty clear. It's just a different way of balancing the jobs (and, frankly, accessory choice) without having to homogenize them. Nor is it mutually exclusive with class changes. It is simply another avenue for providing balance, and one that SE has actually admitted their faults in with this last tier. True balance will likely still take a bit of tuning on the job side as well. But to design content that actually makes use of their differences, as in entirely unique strengths rather than just difference in strengths in common among all three, increases the ways we have to retain tank identity without leaving one or more behind.

Not trying to be defensive, especially in regards to a post that is not my own, but it seems unreasonable to push aside what, as far as I can see, is a very valid main point, and with it the entire other half of job design (the environments they work in).

Originally Posted by Dhex

They aren't forcing balance. They've got imbalance - an imbalance that is going to persist over an 8-month period. They've got a gaping hole between Paladin and the other two tanks. Warrior has a guaranteed raid slot.

Originally Posted by Brian_

Except they are not trying to force more imbalance, they are trying to force balance.

We've established that the current meta stinks and most likely these changes will do little to fix it. The point is what they could do. But can we really say that even if PLD is given as much MT (assuming Grit/Def/Shield) dps as DRK or WAR, and if it somehow gained DRK or WAR-level AoE, it would be taken? It would still ultimately be burdened with abilities that see little to no use in most situations. If we are to follow the general assuption (e.g. in Bards/MCHs) that having these utility options will have cost you elsewhere, however faintly, but should improve the situation of the raid as a whole through their/your being present and able, then those abilities cannot just go unused. PLD abilities may well need changes to cast and recast times, CDs, range, and costs, but they'll also likely need places where they provide a noticeable benefit, rather than just just a slightly greater raid healing/mitigation output, etc. (and whatever opportunities that gives), than they could put out personal dps for the time being, especially given that they've been stuck in a least favored position for months.

For instance, I'd like to see SB's enmity mod and RoH's potency boosted slightly for more enmity output. Due to personal preference, I'd have preferred to see Shield Swipe boosted to 220 potency rather than being made an oGCD, and for Shield Oath to no longer reduce Shield-based damage (as an oGCD, our TP problems will merely have worsened in a few cases, and dungeon runs just got a lot more annoying without Swipe's refresh component). For the purpose of some goddamn AoE damage, I'd have liked to see some other change to our "Shield" abilities (be it Oath, Swipe, and/or Bash) to provide that AoE at least in MT position. I'd like for Flash to remain relevant (for more than just enmity). But even after all those changes might go out and PLD is arguably "not shit", even if each of its abilities were individually worthy, whether a PLD gets to go in depends on the fight itself. Even if I were to try my hardest to balance PLD and fill its needs, I won't actually know what needs those are (beyond general competence, while hopefully retaining uniqueness/identity) until the next tier of content (partly because I don't know whether SE will be able to really balance said tier, and suspect that if they do more or less manage to 'balance' it, that balance will rely on general measures and by avoiding challenges that would make any differences apparent, rather than simply trying to present a near-equal total of uniquely advantageous situations).

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Brian has mentioned constantly a lack of content-based balancing in game; the examples that can be given from in-game, therefore, lack overall balance, even if certain parts of those examples point at possible better designs. Individually, these examples, each taken from a small part of existent encounters might imply FotM choices. But if the overall balance of each encounter were improved, such that each tank would have a relatively equal value across (all parts of) the encounter through their various, different advantages, leaving no clear FotM choice. This seems pretty clear. It's just a different way of balancing the jobs (and, frankly, accessory choice) without having to homogenize them. Nor is it mutually exclusive with class changes.

There will always be a superior choice when you take this approach. You can try to create a scenario where different advantages help in leading to the clear in different ways, but once people figure out the best way to do it, that will become the standard. That's just an aspect of human nature that is part of the landscape in ANYTHING that involves more than one player.

And why are we going back to demonizing performance parity? Especially when the lack of performance parity is one of the main culprits behind the problems we're currently seeing (encounter design being another)?

It is simply another avenue for providing balance, and one that SE has actually admitted their faults in with this last tier. True balance will likely still take a bit of tuning on the job side as well. But to design content that actually makes use of their differences, as in entirely unique strengths rather than just difference in strengths in common among all three, increases the ways we have to retain tank identity without leaving one or more behind.

Class identity can still come from mechanics, abilities and aesthetics while still remaining equal to other members of the roster in performance. Are you really that bothered by WAR and DRK dealing the same damage as a PLD?

But can we really say that even if PLD is given as much MT (assuming Grit/Def/Shield) dps as DRK or WAR, and if it somehow gained DRK or WAR-level AoE, it would be taken? It would still ultimately be burdened with abilities that see little to no use in most situations.

Which is not a bad thing. The utility PLD was given is not the type that is or should be needed all the time. This is why I facepalm at the people who complain about Clemency not being a mandatory ability in the rotation (it's situational off-healing, emphasis on situational) and those that expect Divine Veil to be up all the time, every time (because expecting to do so would be like expecting this or this to be used every time it's up instead of during oh-shit moments).

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Clemency is far too long to cast to be an emergency heal, and no healer will really count on you for healing someone else.

There are reasons Clemency is inconvenient to use. Firstly so that raids don't start forcing their tanks to start healing (this is something I absolutely hated in 1.0, so I'm happy it's gone). Secondly because the heal is relatively strong and even when not used on someone else, easy use of Clemency would notably bump PLD survivability. I'm not entirely against changing Clemency, but if you want to make it easy to use then it needs a cooldown or some other limitation (like consuming your entire MP bar and letting you only be able to cast it when your MP is at 50% of your total MP). Turning it into something akin to Lay On Hands would also be an option (provided they keep the cooldown).

Awareness was...useful (I guess) in T11...except than since the ensured critical hit was an AoE, the party had to mitigate the damage anyway, and it was after an add phase, not really damage heavy on the tank.

I got nothing on this. Awareness is a wasted ability slot, but most of us know that already.

Blind ? Most bosses are immune.

Blinding boss mobs would be overpowered.

Pacification ? Same.

This would also be overpowered.

Chain Stun ? Either immune, or only requires one precise Stun less often than 30s, so other tanks are better since they're not delayed by GCD.

This is largely a result of the poor way the developers have implemented interrupts into the game. They also have to space out interrupts where applicable because of stun diminishing returns/immunity (an issue that wouldn't exist if we had real interrupts).

I didn't play PLD on A3, but I wouldn't be surprised if Ferrofluid just plain ignores Tempered Will, like Typhoon does.

Eh, I'm willing to make concessions on mechanics not allowing me to cheese them, so I wouldn't be too heartbroken if that were the case.

Originally Posted by Duelle

There are reasons Clemency is inconvenient to use. Firstly so that raids don't start forcing their tanks to start healing (this is something I absolutely hated in 1.0, so I'm happy it's gone). Secondly because the heal is relatively strong and even when not used on someone else, easy use of Clemency would notably bump PLD survivability.

Isn't survivability...supposed to be our thing ? And frankly, raids force their tank to DPS, so, why not heal ?
We could legitimately say "You don't want to play a tank that heal ? Then don't play PLD" like you wouldn't play WAR if you don't want others expecting you to do great DPS.

Originally Posted by Duelle

Blinding boss mobs would be overpowered.

No, it wouldn't. It's not like Blind makes everything automatically miss. It's exactly like an Evasion boost, but for the other part of the equation. It was useful against Titan HM, to dodge Moutain Buster (God, it felt so satysfying ), but not to the point of breaking the game.

Originally Posted by Duelle

pacification would also be overpowered.

How ? It's only a form of interruption, and you can't spam it. But if you really think it's too much, replace it with a few seconds of reduced damaged, like reprisal. Again, reducing damage is supposed to be OUR thing.

Originally Posted by Duelle

They also have to space out interrupts where applicable because of stun diminishing returns/immunity (an issue that wouldn't exist if we had real interrupts).

You see, the fun part is that bosses build absolutely no resist on some debuffs. Storm's Eye and Path are always fully applied, Reprisal, too...

Originally Posted by Cheraa

...oh wait, I'm out of Mana after two Clemency? Can't heal again for ~6-7 GCD.

Fun fact : Riot Blade and Syphon Strike have exactly the same purpose. But, not only is Syphon Strike stronger, it also gives back the exact cost of one Unleash, whereas one Riot Blade does not compensate for the cost of one Flash...just...why ? (Keep in mind that Flash and Unleash cost the same)

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Isn't survivability...supposed to be our thing ? And frankly, raids force their tank to DPS, so, why not heal?

We already have plenty of survivability via our cooldowns. And there's a lot of things wrong with a tank being forced to DPS in raids the way this game does. The tank focuses on surviving and holding aggro, not doing the healer's job for them.

No, it wouldn't. It's not like Blind makes everything automatically miss. It's exactly like an Evasion boost, but for the other part of the equation. It was useful against Titan HM, to dodge Moutain Buster (God, it felt so satysfying ), but not to the point of breaking the game.

Trivializing boss abilities, even in an RNG fashion the way Blind would allow, is simply too much. Which to me is not that different from asking to be able to stun/silence Judgement Nisi or Ravana's liberation attacks.

How? It's only a form of interruption, and you can't spam it. But if you really think it's too much, replace it with a few seconds of reduced damaged, like reprisal. Again, reducing damage is supposed to be OUR thing.

Now you're talking about changing the effects of Shield Swipe as a whole. I'm not opposed to this per se, but that's a discussion for another topic.

You see, the fun part is that bosses build absolutely no resist on some debuffs. Storm's Eye and Path are always fully applied, Reprisal, too...

You missed my point. You'd see a wider use of interrupt mechanics if they weren't status effects that lasted a couple of seconds. Raids used to have to work out interrupt rotations (which largely involved the melee DPS in the raid) for bosses in WoW because those fights were tuned around the raid interrupting certain boss abilities to actually get the clear (whose use range from mitigating tank/raid damage like with Kel'thuzad or avoiding effects that created massive inconveniences to the raid like with General Vezzax).