What they mean by "change the damage calculations of tanks"?

[whiskeybravo]

Just some random thoughts, but what if..

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Vit and str on left side remained as is (creates a soft-cap).

Lock accessories (it's kind of silly that they aren't locked already, no job other than healer needs mind, no job other than caster needs int, etc).

Modify parry to *actually* increase chance of parry and increase chance of riposte after parried attack. (people have been asking for this forever)

New tank secondary stat called Vigor** that would increase damage dealt and chance to riposte. (parry shouldn't be the only "tank" stat)

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Maybe that would be too much work, I don't know. But it would give value to parry which it currently lacks, and creates some options for different gear setups. With chance for a counter attack and a new stat (which would need to be weighted at least 2 or 3 times det, or half of str, something..) it would increase base damage and reduce the maximum damage output to something that was *likely* more what the devs had in mind.

A lot of the current problem is strictly with the way Alex savage is designed, being DPS check heavy, which has pushed tanks and healers both to contribute more than they have ever had to in the past. I think the fact that we only have an "easy" mode and "savage" mode, with nothing in between for midcore raiders further exasperated the issue. They should have had a story/easy mode, a middle ground that was tuned similar to previous raids, and a savage mode specifically for the hardcore where they can push all the boundaries. Maybe the next raid set will have that, who knows. But that's a different conversation entirely.

** Vigor.. Or something. I like the definition "physical strength and good health." So maybe it could even increase passive HP regen xD

[Alahra]

New tank secondary stat called Vigor**

Exact mechanics aside, I like the idea of another tank secondary stat and this is a pretty cool name for it. Honestly, I think every class needs at least one more secondary (and DPS probably need two), so gear gets more interesting.

I don't think we're likely to see any major changes like new stats outside of an expansion release, though. I would love to see some adjustments to Parry (as would pretty much everyone, I think).

And yes, I don't think they'd be honing in on the STR-meta for tanks so much if it weren't for the difficulty of Savage. I get the impression that it was cleared faster than they anticipated, just like FCOB was. The top guilds are tenacious, though, and they keep underestimating them.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Well the problem with new stats and such is data limitation. They will also have to go back and redo every single tank pieces in the game.

It would also effect low level gear a lot (Disciple of War) gear.

Do you think the developers are going to go through all that work? No.

[whiskeybravo]

DoW gear shouldn't be worn by tanks anyways, they have their own GLA MRD PLD WAR DRK gear. And yea, any new stat, whether it's primary or secondary, is going to be a lot of work. But as with any endeavor, you look at expected results, and if the expected results are worth it then it doesn't matter how much work you have to put in. Don't do a half ass job at fixing it, if you're going to fix a previous mistake you do it right the second time so you hopefully don't have to again. I don't know if any of those suggestions would work or not, even something like programming a counterattack off parry would probably be a massive undertaking, it's all brainstorming at this point.

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

Just some random thoughts, but what if..

---

Vit and str on left side remained as is (creates a soft-cap).

interesting

Lock accessories (it's kind of silly that they aren't locked already, no job other than healer needs mind, no job other than caster needs int, etc).

As long as the damage stat is on the tank accessories, at least in part

Modify parry to *actually* increase chance of parry and increase chance of riposte after parried attack. (people have been asking for this forever)

Oh gawd why, why WHYYYYYY. Parry is firmly and FOREVER broken. I could dig this if SE ever decided to actually fix parry, but IMO, fixing parry is on the priority list right after the development of the next final fantasy MMO, FFXXIV…….

New tank secondary stat called Vigor** that would increase damage dealt and chance to riposte. (parry shouldn't be the only "tank" stat)

You are talking my language, and a much better stat name than I came up with…

In the end you may be too right, it is likely too much work for the devs, but maybe not too much work for the next expansion???

Well the problem with new stats and such is data limitation.

The work arounds for this range from very complex to quite simple. Rename STR into *Vigor on tank gear only. Done. (oversimplification but still). SE’s “data limitation’s” are feeling more and more like when I tell my kids “Because I said so”. Retainer’s and the Mog station come to mind, but that is for another forum.

Yes, all of this is still an enormous amount of work, but SE has already stated they have plans to “change the damage calculations of tanks”. We know that something new will be in 3.2. At this point, this thread is just conjecture on what Yoship and co have decided on doing, we just don’t know how much change SE wants to make. I’m guessing that since SE decided to bring this up 2-3 months BEFORE 3.2 will roll out, this change is a bit higher on their priority list.

[whiskeybravo]

Oh gawd why, why WHYYYYYY. Parry is firmly and FOREVER broken. I could dig this if SE ever decided to actually fix parry, but IMO, fixing parry is on the priority list right after the development of the next final fantasy MMO, FFXXIV…….

Lol xD

I was just trying to think of way to give tanks some damage back if they are going to limit the amount str that can be equipped. Doesn't have to come from parry but the stat exists now, at least, and they should attempt to make it more useful if possible..

Rename STR into *Vigor on tank gear only. Done. (oversimplification but still). .

That's an option too.. But then it becomes a primary stat, and on accessories if you have both vit and vigor it's kind of the same as having vit and str. I think it would be best as a heavily weighted secondary stat, then you can have str + vigor on main gear.

[Dante_V]

There is about a 5000 HP difference (ish, math - coffee = no math) between full VIT accessories and full STR.

You were close, it's about 4k with 190 accessories. I think more importantly is the str difference between full slaying and fending sets, which is about 200 str. Converted stat weights this is the equivalent of 20 weapon damage, or in other terms it's the raw damage difference of a 200 eso weapon versus a 2.0 non upgraded poetics weapon (20 phys atk difference)

Ie going full fending at level 190 is equivalent to an 80 level drop in weapon damage. This is a pretty substantial loss we are talking about especially in fights based so heavily on raid dps. Now granted most tanks are going to mix the two to reach the hp threshold in everything after a1s, but for any other content running full slaying is completely viable with a full 200 left side due to the vit on the armor.

Ultimately the problem occurring here has nothing to do with tanks or their stats at all. It has to do with the design and mechanics in the raid content. They either need to increase the raid damage output to tanks by the bosses or establish mechanics that some how trivialize tank damage output in the fight to lower the weight of their damage stats for that instance and in turn lower the benefit of gearing such a way. Simply recalculating the tank damage calculations or nerfing there stats won't change anything. It will ultimately just make tanking that much less rewarding and more boring than it already is. The one thing that increased tank dps and rotations actually do is make tanking wayyyyy more interesting and allow for the skill ceiling to be raised. Short of revamping the entire game engine to make defense and active role and not a rng calculation, straight defense tanking in this game will always remain a complete snoozefest with almost no skill necessary aside from spamming aggro moves and pushing a cooldown when a bar is about to fill up for an attack.

[Syzygian]

Situation 1: DPS A and B are wearing the gear assigned to their jobs. DPS A does 400 DPS. DPS B does 1000 DPS. This is because DPS B is more skilled than DPS A. If both of them did the same rotation with the same precision they would be nearly equal.

Situation 2: Tank A is in VIT. Tank B is in STR. They both proceed to do the exact same rotation, pressing the exact same buttons at the exact same time with exactly perfect precision. Tank A does 500 DPS. Tank B does 1000 DPS. Skill had no factor in this. Only the wonkiness of Tank Stats did.

<3 Tahz you are my WAR soulmate.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

interesting



As long as the damage stat is on the tank accessories, at least in part




Oh gawd why, why WHYYYYYY. Parry is firmly and FOREVER broken. I could dig this if SE ever decided to actually fix parry, but IMO, fixing parry is on the priority list right after the development of the next final fantasy MMO, FFXXIV…….



You are talking my language, and a much better stat name than I came up with…

In the end you may be too right, it is likely too much work for the devs, but maybe not too much work for the next expansion???



The work arounds for this range from very complex to quite simple. Rename STR into *Vigor on tank gear only. Done. (oversimplification but still). SE’s “data limitation’s” are feeling more and more like when I tell my kids “Because I said so”. Retainer’s and the Mog station come to mind, but that is for another forum.

Yes, all of this is still an enormous amount of work, but SE has already stated they have plans to “change the damage calculations of tanks”. We know that something new will be in 3.2. At this point, this thread is just conjecture on what Yoship and co have decided on doing, we just don’t know how much change SE wants to make. I’m guessing that since SE decided to bring this up 2-3 months BEFORE 3.2 will roll out, this change is a bit higher on their priority list.

Except, its not that easy. That would change the strength for all gear and would still have problems because the strings for gear is in different places. Are you a programmer?

They would have to go back and manually change every single piece they have done.

Programming is a lot more complicated then that. You have to edit a TON of strings. IT ISN'T SOMETHING YOU CAN SIMPLY copy and paste.

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

You were close, it's about 4k with 190 accessories.

Yay - math! Keep in mind I wasn't promoting VIT stacking, only pointing out potential flaws if damage was based on solely VIT for tanks, we would be running around with a ton more health (and and maintaining or increasing damage output as there is more vitality available than any other stat - as per Ariyala's website).

There is a significant loss in dps going full fending v. full slaying and current raid setup screams more deeps. SE knows this, they designed it. Pentamelds have been a thing for tanks for quite some time, not just since 3.0, tanks wearing slaying accessories have been around for awhile, not just 3.0. SE decided to give everything a hard enrage, thus putting emphasis on dps. SE decided that if you like to "Netflix and Medica" or "Reddit and Tank", endgame isn't for you.

I'm fine with the meta. I find it more engaging. More importantly, I think SE thinks that this meta is more engaging for more people. Leading to more tanks, to better queue times for everyone, to more gameplay to more subs.

...

I'm pretty sure that I have previously covered the fact that I am not a programmer (but i did program a TI-81 calculator once....). I also stated in that specific post that my example was an oversimplification. There would exist some highly complicated ways to make that transition, as there are very likely some ways that are easier (in comparison). I restated at the end of my post that all of this is still an enormous amount of work. Reiterating whiskeybravo's previous post stating the same thing.

I'm going to have to agree with Donjo's earlier statement, I think you missed the mark.