What they mean by "change the damage calculations of tanks"?

[DarioSkydragon]

Sorry if it's hard to understand what I say. English is not my primary language xD

I pentamelded my i110 accessories to play FCoB and even then switched to more parts slaying. Still, I could hardly overcome DPS, even those not optimized. Certainly bad DPS was possible to overcome.

I played as mt / ot all coils and FCoB was undoubtedly the easiest among them.

But the fact of the tanks dps are not required in these turns, meant that the vast majority of the tanks simply ignore its potential as DPS.

Now in Alex Savage, tanks and healers need to DPS, which made their lives much more challenging, both in its task of tanking / survive as the task of contributing to the DPS of the raid.

Even my friends tanks / healers who were against these attack classes now like to give DPS, and this led them to improve a lot as players.

I'm sorry for the tanks who just want to be walls, but the tank / healer current meta is much more fun for those who enter it for real.

[Syzygian]

Sorry if it's hard to understand what I say. English is not my primary language xD

I pentamelded my i110 accessories to play FCoB and even then switched to more parts slaying. Still, I could hardly overcome DPS, even those not optimized. Certainly bad DPS was possible to overcome.

I played as mt / ot all coils and FCoB was undoubtedly the easiest among them.


But the fact of the tanks dps are not required in these turns, meant that the vast majority of the tanks simply ignore its potential as DPS.

Now in Alex Savage, tanks and healers need to DPS, which made their lives much more challenging, both in its task of tanking / survive as the task of contributing to the DPS of the raid.

Even my friends tanks / healers who were against these attack classes now like to give DPS, and this led them to improve a lot as players.

I'm sorry for the tanks who just want to be walls, but the tank / healer current meta is much more fun for those who enter it for real.

Ah, I see. The thing is though, the people that were maximizing back in the days of scob and fcob are still maximizing now, and you carry that with you on the back of your skill as a player, and it transcends gear/stats. Even in coil, regardless of if you had to put on more fending gear, you still maximized your raid awareness and GCD usage to pump out as much DPS as you could in the confines of that. The assumption that tanks were just half-assing their play back then is misleading and a little insulting to tanks that were... i dunno... trying? And you did have to try at first unless you were clearing this in full i120-i130 gear. T12 is a great example of this. How easy people say T12 was is extremely telling of how geared they were when they cleared it. The Bennu DPS check was no joke.

The fact that maximizing before (like in bcob) meant mitigation and maximizing now means DPS does not make one inherently more skillful than the other. It just means "Woo! Big numbers on the screen!"

I do not think you have anything to be scared of with what SE appears to be planning. What I'm hoping is that they make it so that there is not a choice between gearsets with one being fundamentally better than the other. Who knows what they'll do. They might lock tanks into fending gear but give tank weapons a crap-ton more weapon damage or something. Your DPS might go down a bit from what it was in full slaying, but still WAY more than the equivalent in full fending, AND you'll have more HP, which means healers will get more of a chance to maximize their DPS as well, and we won't have this stigma in the game attached to our gear. Your skill as a player still matters and always does no matter what gear you are wearing, and lets be real here, most of the stunts us tanks pull in slaying gear ride on the skill of our healers, as much, if not more than our own. Yet we talk about it with such pride which I just do. not. under. stand. Its like check out my insane skills as I click this slaying gear onto my character sheet! Its a fallacy to assume a player cannot maximize their actual in-combat play based on limitations of gear.

[Cynric]

snip

No reason to have that attitude just because people enjoy different things about tanking. I enjoy having high tank DPS to carry the bad ones and make the difference between a clear and seeing an enrage. I also noted that for me it's different. I pay PvP. My reasons for playing a tank and yours are different.

Since I am a PvPer a lack of tank dps when Dark Knight doesn't have the level of CC warrior or paladin do, playing Dark Knight would kind of be pointless if I can't even do decent damage. While yes I strength tank in pve and I enjoy doing it. I tanked in 2.0 with vitality and while it was boring to tank on paladin in lots of fights. That's more because of the lack of other things to do while tanking than doing good DPS. However at least for now I can contribute decent damage to help beat an enrage or make a run quicker.

But as far as the meta or your mindset hate or whatever. Don't lump me in with your hate. I'm a PvPer, I could care less whether you enjoy sitting in front of a boss while healers and DPS carry you or whether you enjoy pushing numbers. I just like being able to survive and kill in PvP and do the same in pve. If they nerf that i'll just go back to DPS.

snip.

So let me get this straight. It's okay for us to sit in front of the boss and do bare minimum DPS, turtle in tank stance and pop a CD every now and then for a buster. While the healers not only heal us, and do mechanics, but also stance dance for cleric stance to push out a ton of DPS, while the DPS does mechanics as well.

It's not okay for healers to just heal but it's okay for tanks to just tank? That seems kind of like a double standard.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Since I am a PvPer a lack of tank dps when Dark Knight doesn't have the level of CC warrior or paladin do, playing Dark Knight would kind of be pointless if I can't even do decent damage. While yes I strength tank in pve and I enjoy doing it. I tanked in 2.0 with vitality and while it was boring to tank on paladin in lots of fights. That's more because of the lack of other things to do while tanking than doing good DPS. However at least for now I can contribute decent damage to help beat an enrage or make a run quicker.

I play a Rank 50 Tank (Paladin) in PvP as well (Which you might be able to guess by the Helm of the Behemoth King my portrait shows at times), and I am fully aware that currently we are slightly tougher (~1500 hp in Sealed Rock) positional free melee DpS with fewer damage boosting cool downs while wearing Strength accessories and very tough, mediocre DpS while wearing Vit Accessories.

I doubt that they plan to completely destroy tank DpS. There may be a roughly 10% decrease in DpS for a Tank wearing Str Accessories, but this would come with a roughly 10% increase in Tank DpS while in Vit Accessories. This would lead to a choice of 5% DpS versus 27% hp (~3k at Sealed Rock's i150 levelsync)

So let me get this straight. It's okay for us to sit in front of the boss and do bare minimum DPS, turtle in tank stance and pop a CD every now and then for a buster. While the healers not only heal us, and do mechanics, but also stance dance for cleric stance to push out a ton of DPS, while the DPS does mechanics as well.

It's not okay for healers to just heal but it's okay for tanks to just tank? That seems kind of like a double standard.

The thing is that a Tank in Str gear and and a Tank in Vit gear do not do anything really different. Both use the same rotations to max DpS, both can do the same stance dancing, etc. The difference in numbers just happens to be influenced by 5 right side equipment pieces.

[ManaKing]

So let me get this straight. It's okay for us to sit in front of the boss and do bare minimum DPS, turtle in tank stance and pop a CD every now and then for a buster. While the healers not only heal us, and do mechanics, but also stance dance for cleric stance to push out a ton of DPS, while the DPS does mechanics as well.

It's not okay for healers to just heal but it's okay for tanks to just tank? That seems kind of like a double standard.

Your Healer gears for max heals and max DPS, that's what cleric stance does, you just have to toggle it when appropriate to play your job to the fullest.

You only gear for maximum DPS and effectively take away their ability to DPS because they can't justify jumping into cleric stance because you'll fall over too fast and make them look incompetent for playing their job to the max.

Your statistical DPS boosts aren't worth their complete exclusion from the DPS portion of their character. The Double Standard is you not letting them play their job the way they want by making an assumption on your gear. If you go for Double Melds you can stance dance and so can they. Double melds are the best you can do to allow yourself and your healers to max your performances without excluding one of you from actually playing the game.

If your healer straight up says, "nope I don't DPS, I only heal" then sure you can start making those assumptions. But I play with healers who actually DPS and enjoy it. They put out solid numbers and help with enrages.

From my point of view, you're just an EPEEN bully. Your play experience is no different than if you were in full VIT. You'd still stance dance if you wanted to increase DPS and the only difference that STR gear makes is how large the numbers are and how long a healer can go before they need to heal you.

SE's statement that tanks need to not be the only job that gets singled out for luxury gearing to help raids progress is indicative of fairness for all, not just for EPEEN tanks.

If you don't like my hyperbole then you really shouldn't have thrown it all over your statements. It gives me the idea that you're ok with a discussion that is just black and white.

[karateorangutang]

I'll be interested to see how they implement the changes. This is probably one of the biggest possible changes in tanking to date.

All I wanna know is if I should be buying fending accessories or not.

[Ibi]

If SE is looking at Tank Damage calculations, it'd be because they don't like the Damage Results tanks are dishing out. If they were fine with tanks having high potential DPS they'd just leave things the way they are. In correlation they referred to hybrid accessories as 'exploits.'

Or it's because they don't like that Fending accessories are considered irrelevant. Or because they don't like that undergeared tanks are following the meta without understanding why, and it's causing DF healers to have to work much harder.

Also, I don't see the word exploit, or any kind of synonym for it, in their post.

No one thinks you should have vit count for hp and damage at 100% of their current scaling if not for the fact that it would nerf tank dps by an utterly miniscule amount across the board which a lot of people are bullheadedly opposed to.

I.e. 50 vit in 3.2 could give the equivalent of what 35 vit+35str currently gives.

They'd have to modify enmity calculations with this also, I suspect, or you run into an issue with this where tank DPS increases at only 70% the rate of DPS classes. Keep that up long enough, and even the best tanks will struggle to keep aggro.

All I wanna know is if I should be buying fending accessories or not.

We've got long enough between now and 3.2 that you've got plenty of time to pick up a set. It's probably worth doing, even just to have more options available in 3.2.

[Xenosan]

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It's possible we have completely different perceptions of the developers. To this day I still envision SE as the sadistic demon it was in 2002-2005 (before WoW really started stealing the playerbase). That thing threw out nerfs like it was confetti. Every patch note you'd groan at the sight of words like 'adjusted,' because you know they didn't mean 'adjusted' like in a good way. You don't exactly advertise a nerf, not without soaking it in honey and using 'feinted language.'

'Adjustment' and 'appropriate,' those are code-words. The further and further we move away from the 1.0 catastrophe and the ARR rebuild the more and more I prepare myself for the return of that monster. Probably why I'm cowering under my desk hearing bomb sirens instead of looking for the shining airplane in the sky. But yea I'd be delighted if my intuition proves false.

[Alahra]

Probably why I'm cowering under my desk hearing bomb sirens instead of looking for the shining airplane in the sky. But yea I'd be delighted if my intuition proves false.

I wouldn't worry too much. The class designers and content designers for XIV don't overlap much with the FFXI team from back then, and Yoshi's said before they really try to avoid nerfs because they know they don't feel good.

Have you read the tank threads where everyone is up in arms about STR gear and how tanks must wear vit!

None of that has anything to do with playing the class optimally, though, in terms of ability usage and high-skill stance swapping. The right side gear has no impact on the actual execution--only the final numbers of the results. Even if there was no option to wear STR, you'd still be able to push your DPS in the same way--you just wouldn't see the numbers hit the same high point.

[Alahra]

All I wanna know is if I should be buying fending accessories or not.

With what information we have available, I would be willing to bet that yes, you should, unless they intend to remove Fending accessories entirely and just give tanks Need privileges on Slaying gear (which is highly unlikely, as that would mean 4 players in a standard eight-man rolling on the same accessories, which isn't a great state of affairs either). I'd imagine their end goal is for tanks to be seeking Fending accessories as they're meant to.

Maybe once we get more information that bet would change, but I'd say it's highly likely that you'll want them at the start of 3.2.