Thread: 3.1 First update without a new primal?

Originally Posted by zosia

3.1 has less end game content than most of the ARR patches just by virtue or dungeons and trials. You are simply wrong because of the mathematical fact that 2 < 3 and 2 < 6.

And this is where we'll have to agree to disagree, since I've certainly grown tired of trying to be civil with you.

What you say is 2 < 3, I say is X < Y. Why? Because I know what 2.1 was like, I know Titan (Extreme), Garuda (Extreme), Ifrit (Extreme) and the Ultima Ballad were fairly lackluster on arrival (to the point where MLP had to be inserted into them, except poor Ultima that is), only offering minor boosts with accessories (which didn't even benefit from Desynthesis at the time). I know Good King Moggle Mog was a do once fight. I know what Treasure Maps were like. I know what Wolves' Den was like. Everyone bloody knows what Housing is like. While you would take each of these things, and quantify them to reach the number 8 (just based off what I just listed), I quantify them based on how they were, which is not a simple number to then go "3 dungeons are more than 2!" with.

No, I don't know what 3.1s content will actually be like, but at the same time I know creating an entire new zone is much more of an undertaking for the developers, than tweaking some boss encounters. I know that requires more work than making a tiny little dungeon (if you want to count the third dungeon from 2.1, which was just a recycled old dungeon, 2.1 and 3.1 both only add one new dungeon). I know that requires more work than placing some Maps/Treasure Chests around the existing maps. I know Lord of Verminion is going to require slightly less balancing than Wolves' Den, though that's because it is a simpler form of PvP and much less likely to fail as a result.

If Sky Exploration sucks, I'll be the first one to cry foul in disappointment, but I still know that creating a new area like that is much more work than giving Titan two adds to play with. Regardless of how it turns out, it required more effort to create than something like an Extreme Primal. You're comparing apples and oranges. You even out right say "2.2 had a new difficult raid, so I was content with that", so on some level you have to understand the difference between types of content. 2.2 added less Extreme encounters than 2.1, by your logic for 3.1, 2.2 should thus be graded below 2.1, yet because you enjoyed a different piece of content, you were content, despite 2.2 having less Extremes than 2.1. It's the exact same thing with Sky Exploration, except you're just being violently pessimistic...

You're effectively going 1 = 1, for something like Crystal Tower and Void Ark, where there is no difference between 2.1 and 3.1, both had an Alliance Raid, where as I'm remembering Labyrinth of the Ancients, and perhaps going "2.1 was better, because Void Arks gear looks like crap", because Void Arks gear looks like crap (IMO). That's just one aspect of my comparison between the two though, stuff like lore, questing (Labyrinth had a notoriously annoying quest), and the encounters within factor in as well, though obviously I've yet to see those for Void Ark. For me it isn't a case of "They're both the same because they're both Raids", this is why I rank 2.0 well over 3.0, because Binding Coil was amazing, where as Alexander is utter tripe. Right now I should be going "2.1 wins because I liked Labyrinths gear more than Void Arks", but I'm not blindly pessimistic like that, while right now I certainly favour Labyrinth, I'm open to the possibility of Void Ark blowing me away with its story, with its encounters. I'm not blindly sitting here going "It'll be rubbish".

Heck, I haven't even said which I think is better, have I? I've said 3.1 has potential, but I don't think I've said 3.1 will be better than 2.1...

Originally Posted by zosia

Yeah, developing an entire pvp system was a great undertaking too.
Developing a entirely new pvp hub was a great undertaking.
CREATING THREE DISTINCT housing zones and the entire UI that accompanied housing was a great undertaking.

OK, just to clarify my stance on this (certainly not wasting a finite daily number of posts on it);

• I likened Lord of Verminion to balancing PvP for a reason, it has potential for PvP the same way Triple Triad does, and it requires (off the top of my head) four classes for minions, along with giving each minion unique stats and abilities. Come to think of it, that's potentially more than the PvP abilities they added in 2.1... Doubt they're all unique though.
• 2.1 did not add a new hub zone for PvP. Wolves' Den Pier has existed since launch.
• Three distinct housing zones which are fairly small... Azys Lla could probably five of them and I imagine Sky Exploration will be on a similar scale to Azys Lla, based on what we've seen. Heavensward zones are much grander than A Realm Reborns, though I'll still give the point to Housing, just because Housing also has to deal with the actual plots and instanced rooms, which create pretty much all the problems we currently have with Housing... Is that really a point though? Yeah Housing is massive, but it is so massive that we have a finite supply of the stuff, meanwhile Sky Exploration is something everyone can potentially enjoy.

Again, I'm not looking at matters purely from a view of "This is more than that", I'm considering all the other factors you're seemingly ignoring. To praise Housing would be utterly foolish, on individual merits as an owner, they've done a good job giving us space to customize, but they've ultimately created a massive number of problems with their implementation. Housing itself is fine, but the implementation is damning. I consider that when I weigh housing against other pieces of content, you just give it an entirely superficial glance and look at what they added, not how they added it.

Originally Posted by zosia

Lord of verminion having good pvp like TT? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Go try to win the TT tourny legit, let me know how it works out for ya.

See, now you're just being unreasonable. The reason one cannot win the Triple Triad Tournament legitimately has nothing to do with the balance of the actual matches, and has everything to do with win traders. Same problem Wolves' Den had. Either you find playing Triple Triad with friends enjoyable, or you don't. Personally I do, depending on the rules. Cheaters don't factor into that at all. Same thing for Lord of Verminion, the Tournament might be plagued with win traders, but that doesn't detract from any enjoyment I may get out of the actual matches, which still have to be balanced and requires every minion in the game to be given a new type/ability/etc.

Originally Posted by zosia

Also, you don't know the size of the sky pirates zone size. I would bet 1 million gil right now that the three housing districts added together are larger than the sky pirate zone.

We'll see, but right off the bat Sky Exploration has a full Z-axis to explore, while Housing areas don't. The middle column in the zone alone looks to be comparable to the Goblet...

Originally Posted by Nalien

And this is where we'll have to agree to disagree, since I've certainly grown tired of trying to be civil with you.What you say is 2 < 3, I say is X < Y. Why? Because I know what 2.1 was like, I know Titan (Extreme), Garuda (Extreme), Ifrit (Extreme) and the Ultima Ballad were fairly lackluster on arrival (to the point where MLP had to be inserted into them, except poor Ultima that is), only offering minor boosts with accessories (which didn't even benefit from Desynthesis at the time). I know Good King Moggle Mog was a do once fight. I know what Treasure Maps were like. I know what Wolves' Den was like. Everyone bloody knows what Housing is like. While you would take each of these things, and quantify them to reach the number 8 (just based off what I just listed), I quantify them based on how they were, which is not a simple number to then go "3 dungeons are more than 2!" with.

No, I don't know what 3.1s content will actually be like, but at the same time I know creating an entire new zone is much more of an undertaking for the developers, than tweaking some boss encounters. I know that requires more work than making a tiny little dungeon (if you want to count the third dungeon from 2.1, which was just a recycled old dungeon, 2.1 and 3.1 both only add one new dungeon). I know that requires more work than placing some Maps/Treasure Chests around the existing maps. I know Lord of Verminion is going to require slightly less balancing than Wolves' Den, though that's because it is a simpler form of PvP and much less likely to fail as a result.

If Sky Exploration sucks, I'll be the first one to cry foul in disappointment, but I still know that creating a new area like that is much more work than giving Titan two adds to play with. Regardless of how it turns out, it required more effort to create than something like an Extreme Primal. You're comparing apples and oranges. You even out right say "2.2 had a new difficult raid, so I was content with that", so on some level you have to understand the difference between types of content. 2.2 added less Extreme encounters than 2.1, by your logic for 3.1, 2.2 should thus be graded below 2.1, yet because you enjoyed a different piece of content, you were content, despite 2.2 having less Extremes than 2.1. It's the exact same thing with Sky Exploration, except you're just being violently pessimistic...

Yeah, developing an entire pvp system was a great undertaking too.
Developing a entirely new pvp hub was a great undertaking.
CREATING THREE DISTINCT housing zones and the entire UI that accompanied housing was a great undertaking.

There were plenty of resource demanding content released in 2.1 that you want to disregard because the initial implementation sucked. Your entire argument rests on the amount of time/effort that went into sky pirated as well as it's projected quality. You're putting all your argument eggs in a single basket. I am sorry I am not idealistic enough, like you, to put all my eggs in one basket.

They developed entirely new systems, zones, and UI going into 2.1. We are seeing a fraction of that effort/results being advertised for 3.1. W/E you want to tell yourself, this game is definitely on course to be LoTR online reborn.

OK, just to clarify my stance on this (certainly not wasting a finite daily number of posts on it);

I likened Lord of Verminion to balancing PvP for a reason, it has potential for PvP the same way Triple Triad does, and it requires (off the top of my head) four classes for minions, along with giving each minion unique stats and abilities. Come to think of it, that's potentially more than the PvP abilities they added in 2.1... Doubt they're all unique though.
2.1 did not add a new hub zone for PvP. Wolves' Den Pier has existed since launch.
Three distinct housing zones which are fairly small... Azys Lla could probably five of them and I imagine Sky Exploration will be on a similar scale to Azys Lla, based on what we've seen. Heavensward zones are much grander than A Realm Reborns, though I'll still give the point to Housing, just because Housing also has to deal with the actual plots and instanced rooms, which create pretty much all the problems we currently have with Housing...

Lord of verminion having good pvp like TT? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Go try to win the TT tourny legit, let me know how it works out for ya.

Also, you don't know the size of the sky pirates zone size. I would bet 1 million gil right now that the three housing districts added together are larger than the sky pirate zone.

Either way, you are completely side stepping the point. The dev team had "great undertakings" in 2.1. Both 2.1 and 3.1 demanded the same sort of resources such as creating a new zone, adding new features like pvp, and encounters needed to be designed/tuned. Unless 3.1 is the best patch we have ever seen, it's inexcusable that it's taken them more time to deliver much less content.

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

you throw fights like moggle mog out the window because you experienced it in 1.0

Actually, I throw Moggle Mog out the window, because you did him once for the MSQ, and perhaps occasionally in the Trials Roulette, anyone who played 1.23 just has added reason to be dulled by it. Likewise for the Extremes and Ultima, they weren't particularly relevant for long from what I recall, there is a reason SE added Ponies to the game (and again, Ultima didn't even get that luxury). Wolves' Den got destroyed by win traders in the same way Triple Triad Tournaments (but not Triple Triad itself) did, and without duels that effectively halted PvP until Frontlines was added. Housing suffered from the price and limited supply, and nothing in 3.1 looks like it'll suffer from that problem at least (except people who pretend the Reclamation system is the ultimate fix), that is a plus for 3.1. I wont be looking at 3.1 content going "I want to enjoy that, but I don't have the Gil" or "but there are no plots left", instead I'll simply be enjoying all of what 3.1 has to offer.

I'm basically just looking at Sky Exploration, hearing that it has no weekly caps, and potential for high item level gear, and thinking to myself "Good", weekly caps have been the bane of my life since I picked up this game. I get why they're there of course, but it doesn't change the fact that they make content a chore. I'm not grinding tomestones or scrips because I want to, I'm grinding them because if I don't, I fall behind. If you miss a weekly cap, you cannot catch up that difference until they're phased out, at which point it stops mattering... Sky Exploration does not sound like it will suffer from that, it sounds like it will suffer from horrendous RNG, but I'm oddly OK with that. If RNG is the price for having content which I can just jump into, without having to worry about caps, so be it. That was actually a large part of why I dislike Treasure Maps, the 18 hour limit. I love doing Treasure Maps, but the fact that my options are basically; Bleed Gil buying them off the Market Board, or; Make sure to get one every 18 hours. That just kills it for me, I want to just log in and go and do stuff, that's why I'm quite fond of the Undersized Party option. Can just jump into 2.x content with a few friends and enjoy it, rather than gathering people or worrying about weekly caps/lockouts... If 3.1 is moving more towards that kind of content, then that is only a plus in my books.

Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

there might be 2 ex primals, doomtrain and tordan

What if we get Bahamut Zero and Neo Bahamut?

PvP airship battles?