DPS Double Standard

[Urthdigger]

Love how most people think this will solve all DPS problems.

It won't solve all DPS problems, but it WILL allow us to identify and call out underperforming DPS.

[Critical-Limit]

Your post makes no sense in relation to what I said, but i'll answer you.

Glass houses and stones.

However if you are hitting enrages, not meeting certain checks yes by all means post the numbers. It's natural to troubleshoot issues.

Healers can contribute dps when necessary, but by no means should they be a tool to make up the difference to due actual DPS slacking.

You were upset a Dps criticized a healers Dps despite being mediocre themselves. Your mentality on improving as a team is not great. If you're the healer you should help
Meet checks if you can. Entire blame should not be just the healers if dPS have room to improve, but both need criticism. It makes no sense to as a team refuse to help clear an obstacle cuz it's "not my job"

Everyone's job is to be the best player they can be. Not expect perfection out of others so you can be lazy.

[HyperiusUltima]

What I can say on this topic is that the solution to our DPS Double Standard is to have some form of statistics done at the end of the dungeon at completion that shows how much damage a DPS did in total, similar to PvP, to show contribution and have an idea on who needs to improve rotation/mechanic-wise.

As a general rule, however, you can't really help someone who plays a different class than you unless you put yourself in their shoes(try the class out up to their level, or to some extent).

[Nomad-phx]

I always just let em do their thing. Stupid low dps/under gearing/bad skill? Meh. Since you can't fart anywhere in eorzea without buttercupping at least 5 of em it really doesn't bother me anymore becausei ts not like the odds of getting the same bad dps twice in a row are as high as getting the same bad tank/healer. But yeah, the number of times I've seen dps wearing tank accessories just to meet ilvl is pretty dumb lol

[DarrenB89]

Being someone that plays as a tank I do get what your saying. The most annoying thing is a DPS that wants to be a tank and attacks any target other then the one you have marked which makes keeping the aggro on you a lot harder. But I have to say in my opinion the healer is the most important when it comes to dungeons. If you don't have a good healer, there is no way your completing it even if the tank is an absolute legend.

[Whiteroom]

You were upset a Dps criticized a healers Dps despite being mediocre themselves. Your mentality on improving as a team is not great. If you're the healer you should help
Meet checks if you can. Entire blame should not be just the healers if dPS have room to improve, but both need criticism. It makes no sense to as a team refuse to help clear an obstacle cuz it's "not my job"

Everyone's job is to be the best player they can be. Not expect perfection out of others so you can be lazy.

Dps checks are designed without healer dps in mind, this has been stated by the devs. So if a healer is doing dps and the check is still failing. It is the fault of the dps not doing their job properly, and not because the healer didn't contribute enough. While I love dpsing as healer, every point I add is bonus dps, not required by design.

[bounddreamer]

I was in a BisEx learning party this past weekend where the other tank and I were the top two damage dealers. Because it is a learning party, the host said who parsed highest and said that yes, dps needed to be doing more damage for us to clear. By the third run or so, the bard was third highest damage dealer...needless to say we didn't clear.

There has to be a way to implement in-game parsing and make it helpful, not harassing. When tanks are consistently out-dpsing the average dps, it's a real problem.

When I play dps it's generally to take a break from the greater demands of tanking or healing, but it doesn't mean I turn my brain off. I'm still trying to bring my best possible dps to the game.

[Februs]

Pot calling kettle black.

So, Tanks have to hold aggro, mitigate damage, AND max their Dps output. Healers have to manage their buffs, keep everyone alive, manage their mana, AND contribute to dps checks... but, Dps have one job, ONE, and their allowed a free pass... Um... yeah, I call BS on that one. Sorry.

Not only are you assuming that most tanks and healers are under performing (maybe that's true; but it's unlikely since most "tanks" you find in DF are actually Dps who only grudgingly tank so they can que faster), but you're also assuming that any under performance on those two jobs parts (who, by default, have far more responsibility than Dps in the first place) is somehow an excuse for Dps to slide under the rug on their one, single, responsibility.

Even better, the proposed solution to this being a problem for everyone else is that has to put up with the mindless mass of under-preforming Dps is to round them all up and put them into groups so they can only hinder each other by playing in the same "time allowances." Basically, all of the casual players (people who, by definition, are usually the worst at their jobs due to simple inexperience) in the game should organize their own raid groups for running regular content, since no one wants to run around with them in DF anyway. I don't mean to come off as high horsed or anything, but surely you must see how ridiculous this notion is.

[Februs]

but both need criticism.

That's true, but the problem is that when it comes to Dps, criticism is not always enough.

When I Dps, I most often play as drg. I know their rotation pretty well. I went out of my way to learn it, and, when I come across other drg's who don't perform as well as I do, I am happy to give them advice. Now, setting aside the people who naturally take offense to you telling them (politely) that their Dps is crap and they're not doing their rotation correctly, there is a limit to how much advice I can give a Dps within a dungeon.

Even before expansion, Dragoon rotations have 27 moves, two DoTs, and two buffs applied on the GC. That doesn't even include the Off GC buffs. The proper rotation for keeping up all buffs and DoT's (even before BoTD was implemented) is actually quite complicated. Not only that, depending on your system of play (I play on Ps4) the hotbar set up plays a HUGE part in keeping your rotation going efficiently. I can correct them on that, but even if the entire group is okay with me hitting pause on the dungeon for a minute to explain what the Drg is doing wrong, I cannot teach ALL of that to someone in a dungeon environment. Some of it is only learned through practice and forming good habits.

The fact is that when it comes to Dps knowing how to maximize, or even just put out "good," dps, the onus of learning their job is really on them. They have to be willing to learn, ask the group how they're doing, and practice their rotations until they get it down. The way things are now, not many Dps do that. They use their job class as an excuse to simply hide under the team and slide by.

[kazeandi]

There are a few factors here that haven't been addressed in the original post (maybe someone did in the thread, I didn't read it all though) I feel should be mentioned, too.

DPS is a much, much more complicated job that healing or tanking. Be it melees with their positionals, or rangeds with their timers and procs. Tanks generally have easy rotations and a few oh-shit-buttons. Getting in position and facing the mob away from the group is a matter of taking a step or two in the right direction and from there on, it's smooth sailing.

Healing is relaxing. No rotations whatsoever, no timers that trash your output if you can't keep them running. No procs that gimp you if you don't use them, no positional requirements apart from "don't hug the tank (duh)". I heal stuff when I feel like doing a dungeon at the end of the day, but am too tired to juggle timers on my BLM.

It is way, way easier to be an acceptable tank or healer than being a mediocre DPS.

That said, the second point is queue times. You don't kick the tank after you just waited for an hour to get a group, as doing so spells the end of the run. You just stand there and wait for them to stabilize their aggro, or you underperform deliberately, but you normally don't complain - I've seen so many tanks rage and leave, sometimes without even a proper reason, I normally just think what you wrote above about bad DPS - I'll probably not see that guy again, so let's just get over with it.

This really is NOT a DPS problem. You just don't see so many tanks or healers perform bad because a) there's 200% DPS in the group and b) because their standards are so low.