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  1. #71
    Player
    Cilia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    The Hermit's Hovel
    Posts
    3,698
    Character
    Trpimir Ratyasch
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Februs View Post
    Also, if all of the gods, Hydaelyn included, turn out to be primals, than the logical solution to all of the problems of FFXIV would be to simply put a stop to belief entirely... Which would probably require the mass genocide of all species, everywhere, throughout the cosmos... Admittedly, that would make for a very interesting plot twist, but I don't think we've seen any villains in FFXIV so far who have that kind of special brand of Kefka level insanity.
    Not necessarily. That comes back to the reason for the primals' existence - because mortals want something they cannot easily get without divine assistance, or power beyond their means. Quoth Igeyorhm:

    Quote Originally Posted by Igeyorhm
    [Primals] are the embodiment of mortal will - of mortal desire.
    ... but that's not entirely true. Primals are the embodiment of mortal weaknesses, mortal flaws. People tend to create and summon primals in response to a hardship - that is, something they cannot overcome without great effort. The amalj'aa summoned Ifrit to help them conquer more of Thanalan, which Ul'dah's presence makes prohibitively difficult. The kobolds summoned Titan to protect them from Limsan expansion and reclaim the land they lost, which they cannot do without his assistance. The Ixal summoned Garuda to help them regain the ability to fly and destroy their enemies. Ysayle and Pope Thordan summoned Shiva and King Thordan, respectively, to end the Dragonsong War.

    In all instances of a primal summoning thus far, it was due to tension between ideals and something being unobtainable without their power. Clashing ideals are one thing, but summoning a primal is not necessary to settle a dispute of ideals. The fact that people will resort to summoning a phantom god speaks volumes about their character, though - their weakness of heart gives birth to a desperate wish, and it is from that desperation a primal is summoned. That's what makes us so strong - not only are we able to overcome the despair that creates and summons primals, we never give in to despair ourselves. We fight with our own strength, and don't borrow power from or rely on the power of a (phantom) god. (The only time we really needed Hydaelyn's protection was to survive Ultima, which was, well, a freakin' nuke.)

    If everyone was strong enough to accept hardship, there would be no need for primals. Faith is not a bad thing, but when it goes to extremes like the primals do, well, conflict is inevitable, even if it is to the detriment of everyone involved. Thus, while the Garleans have a valid point, they simply take it too far because their extremism only pushes others to the opposite extreme.

    Any social commentary on religion is purely imagined on your part. I assure you.

    I admit it'd be kinda boring to have every god be a primal of varying power, or perhaps an eikon (which as far as we can figure is just a primal that doesn't need active worshipers). Still, we have yet to understand much beyond "Hydaelyn is a goddess." As a scientific person, it's not really in my nature to just accept that as truth, or not ask where she came from or what gives her power...

    I try to avoid taking my cues from previous games in the franchise, as while elements tend to be common I personally don't think entire plot points and themes should be reused. (Makes them seem lazy.) Most of my cues are taken from the Dark Souls games, which despite being 10x more cynical than Final Fantasy also deals with cyclical history, an unbreakable circle of fate, and duality, like XIV seems to.
    (1)
    Last edited by Cilia; 10-25-2015 at 08:04 AM. Reason: Typos etc.
    Trpimir Ratyasch's Way Status (7.3 - End)
    [ ]LOST [ ]NOT LOST [X]TRAUNT!
    "There is no hope in stubbornly clinging to the past. It is our duty to face the future and march onward, not retreat inward." -Sovetsky Soyuz, Azur Lane: Snowrealm Peregrination

  2. #72
    Player
    Fenral's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    2,175
    Character
    W'fharl Tia
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Cilia View Post
    I try to avoid taking my cues from previous games in the franchise, as while elements tend to be common I personally don't think entire plot points and themes should be reused. (Makes them seem lazy.)
    Sure, because rejecting the overarching themes of self-love, free will, and mankind's inherent and unlimited potential that run through the entire series simply for the sake of being contrarian would make for a much better story. The themes were kind of the only thing tying together Final Fantasy games when they decided to go further out there (like FFVIII), and even the ever-polarizing Final Fantasy XIII knew better than to mess with that. Don't really feel like starting a fight over whether or not Final Fantasy XIV is being true to that or not, since there's ample evidence in both directions, just saying that Moogles and Chocobos and a fairly consistent set of summoned creatures is only the tiniest part of what Final Fantasy means to admittedly-overanalytical people like me.
    (1)

  3. #73
    Player
    Kallera's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    4,160
    Character
    Etoile Kallera
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenral View Post
    Sure, because rejecting the overarching themes of self-love, free will, and mankind's inherent and unlimited potential that run through the entire series simply for the sake of being contrarian would make for a much better story....
    I don't think Cilia was talking about rejecting the themes, so much as not copying plot pieces in previous games word for word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilia View Post
    ...
    In all instances of a primal summoning thus far, it was due to tension between ideals and something being unobtainable without their power. Clashing ideals are one thing, but summoning a primal is not necessary to settle a dispute of ideals. The fact that people will resort to summoning a phantom god speaks volumes about their character, though - their weakness of heart gives birth to a desperate wish, and it is from that desperation a primal is summoned. That's what makes us so strong - not only are we able to overcome the despair that creates and summons primals, we never give in to despair ourselves. We fight with our own strength, and don't borrow power from or rely on the power of a (phantom) god. (The only time we really needed Hydaelyn's protection was to survive Ultima, which was, well, a freakin' nuke.)...
    I'm not sure this is true. yes, Hydaelyn's power occured visibly in that instance. but from the way the echo and blessing are described we could possibly be using the blessing in every battle we are in, not in the manner of life saving shields, mind you, but our ability to take on shrug off blows from vicious beasts on a level that would cream the average soldier. I'm not sure where our own personal power begins and the power afforded by "being Hydaelyn's champion" ends, unless Heavensward's blessing is us attaining and use the blessing solely through the use of the crystals of light, which would mean the blessing ONLY requires the crystals of light, and can be not connected with Hydaelyns will at all. Then it becomes a lot easier to answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilia View Post
    If everyone was strong enough to accept hardship, there would be no need for primals. Faith is not a bad thing, but when it goes to extremes like the primals do, well, conflict is inevitable, even if it is to the detriment of everyone involved. Thus, while the Garleans have a valid point, they simply take it too far because their extremism only pushes others to the opposite extreme.

    Any social commentary on religion is purely imagined on your part. I assure you.
    "If only people could accept their lot without turning to otherworldly powers..." Is simply easier to say for some than others, particularly when the body count starts. It kinda points out that the "Warrior of Light", however strong they are, is not a permanent solution to the primal question, either. Primals are kinda like nukes in a way. once the knowledge and proliferation of their creations becomes more and more common, it only becomes more difficult to contain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilia View Post
    I admit it'd be kinda boring to have every god be a primal of varying power, or perhaps an eikon (which as far as we can figure is just a primal that doesn't need active worshipers). Still, we have yet to understand much beyond "Hydaelyn is a goddess." As a scientific person, it's not really in my nature to just accept that as truth, or not ask where she came from or what gives her power...
    This is an important question to find out, given the currently theories of our character.
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    Last edited by Kallera; 10-25-2015 at 06:20 PM.

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