What is Zodiark?

[Nalien]

Worse yet, consider Zodiark. He, certainly, does not have enough followers to warrant his existence as a Primal on the same level as Hydaelyn.

That's exactly why I suggest that they are in fact Eikons. Case and point; How many followers does Odin have? None, perhaps one at best if he is tempering someone to manifest himself... Eikons aren't simply a higher level Primal, there seems to be something special about them... Even the Ascians seem to have some distinction between them; They need the Primals for their plan, but, at least based on Unukalhai (who just has to have some connection to the Ascians), they don't want Eikons being released. Why? If Eikons are just stronger Primals, wouldn't Eikons be better to speed up their plans? The only conclusion I can come to is that Primals are bad, and Eikons are good, either that or Unukalhai is innocent, despite that post credits scene at 2.55...

Considering the rather extreme methods of ceremonies that have been required to create and sustain more powerful versions of Primals (ie: live sacrifice for some extreme versions, or tens of thousands of tortured followers in other cases) what would be the nature of Hydaelyn's continued existence?

Funny you should mention live sacrifices... What is one of the key points about life on Hydaelyn? The Lifestream... When NPCs die, they return to the Lifestream, which is a part of Hydaelyn, until their aether (but seemingly not them) is recycled for new life... We even have someone (Y'shtola) who has basically inhabited the Lifestream now, and it didn't seem like a particularly pleasant place to be... Certainly not for clothing, at least...

[Kuwagami]

How many followers does Odin have? None, perhaps one at best if he is tempering someone to manifest himself...

Odin is a special case though, as the primal as we know it is just a poor temptered lad, and the true primal is the sword itself (or so we believe, as it is the only rationnal explanation for his neverending return at this point). Though "followers" may be a strong word, Zantetsuken strives for challenge, and feeds its lust into its wielder. By extension, Zantetsuken could very well be fed by feelings of rivalry (wars, duels, etc...) rather than actual prayers. On the same level, Hydaelyn would be fed by the will to live (as Hydaelyn provides a ground to live on, air, food and aether to sustain every living being) rather than worshipping for the planet.


As for the ascians not wanting to release eikons (not entirely true either, for now it's just Unukhalai (yeah I'm convinced the guy is an ascian), and probably Elidibus), my guess is that eikons don't strain Hydaelyn's aether, and thus are just rampaging forces. They bring destruction but serve no purpose in the return of Zodiark. Thus unwanted.

[Februs]

Snip.

Actually, a lot of this was already explained and confirmed by the lore panel. I learned a lot about it in a previous thread about Odin. For one, Odin is a special case, but not in the sense that Eikons are special from Primals.
It has been all but confirmed that the Odin battles we've been fighting so far are actually NOT Odin. Though it has never been explicitly stated in-game, The Dark Divinity quest line confirms that Odin's aether does not originate from the body, but from the sword.

The lore panel specified that Zantetsuken is that it is from the North (was likely a Raen weapon) and is "cursed." Odin won the sword in combat, presumably killing its original wielder, and took it on his quest to rescue Urth. He uses it to great effect, but he eventually succumbs to the corrosive influence of the blade.

From this, a few conclusions have been drawn. The most commonly held assumption right now is that Zantetsuken is a Primal. The blade works in a similar fashion to the way Iceheart became a host for Shiva. It possesses it occupant and shapes them into Odin, the only warrior it has deemed worthy of it. Any non-echo user would die in such a process, a living sacrifice to the sword. Odin's persona remains, but it is decidedly not Odin. Also, since each battle ends with the body being defeated, and not the sword, the aether never dissipates. No one has actually ever won the fight, because we haven't been fighting the real Primal.

There's also a theory that the sword feeds off of the endless supply of prayers fed to it by generations upon generations of warriors seeking to be the best that they can possibly be (that would be several thousand years’ worth of "prayers" offered unknowingly to this supreme weapon), and a few theories as to what happened to the real Odin, and whether or not he is actually alive. Some of these theories take us back to the Warring Triad (as there are similarities between Urth, Wiyu and Odin and the Fiend, Demon, and Goddess) and SE's actually makes a direct reference to Odin and the Warring Triad in their lore panel (though the reference is a little ambiguously worded) so people are just waiting for the details, but what we do know right now is that Zantetsuken is (most likely) the primal in the Odin fights, and that the body we are seeing is definitely not him. Further, the incarnation of Odin that it summons uses a method that we are very familiar with, as it has been used by several other Primals (Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan Ex, Shiva, Phoenix, and the knights of the round, all use the same or a very similar method).

[Nalien]

From this, a few conclusions have been drawn. The most commonly held assumption right now is that Zantetsuken is a Primal.

Isn't this debunked in game though?

Unukalhai specifically states that Odin is an Eikon, and that Eikons are different than Primals. I'm aware Zantetsuken is the real threat from what is learned in the Odin (Extreme) plot, but as far as I'm concerned, Odin and Zantetsuken might as well be synonymous.

[Februs]

Snip.

As for the terms “Eikon” and “Primal,” the lore panel specified those in greater detail as well. I’m sorry to say, there really isn’t a difference.
Basically,

1. “Primal” = “Toshin”

And

2. Elder Primal = Eikon.

SE clearly identified the difference in the same panel in which the spoke about Odin. They specified that the Allagans did not have a word for “Primal” in their language. They used the word "Toshin," meaning God of Fighting, to describe “summoned, god-like beings.” They went on to elaborate further saying that the term "Eikon" was also an Allagan term used to describe "powerful summons."

The Garlean Empire adopted the word and have been using it as a derogatory term for "false-gods;" however, it's original meaning was simply "powerful summoned god-like being." Given that both the terms Toshin and Eikon mean "god-like being that has been summoned," and that Toshin=Primal, it’s clear that there is no difference between them except for language and culture. Fundamentally, Primals and Eikons are the same thing. They’re both “god-like” beings, and they’re both “summoned.” The only difference between them is the level of strength.

If an Allagan ran into Titan, he would call him a Toshin, instead of Primal. Likewise, if an Allagan ran into Odin, Bahamut, or Alexander, they would refer to them as Eikons, whereas the Eorzean term is "Elder Primal."

That being said, it has yet to be confirmed or denied that the Warring Triad or god-like beings above the Warring Triad fall into these categories. SE mentioned the Odin (a god of fighting) to be related somehow to the Warring Triad. Some people have taken this to mean that the Warring Triad is a group of 3 Eikons (possibly including Odin, Urth, and Wiyu) or Elder Primals; however, SE was not clear on this topic. Further, even if they are including Odin as a member of the Warring Triad, they did not mention which Odin they were referring to. If they meant the incarnation of Odin which is summoned by Zantetsuken, than it would seem to imply that the Warring Triad is nothing more than Eikons (kinda disappointing, so I hope not). However, if they are referring to the "true Odin," than we have no idea what the Warring Triad is, because Odin was not originally a Primal. Supposedly he was a supreme warrior capable of withstanding the curse over Zantetsuken, meaning he may have had the echo. It's possible Odin followed the path we are on now. Elidabus mentions that we are growing too strong and are crossing over the threshold of the gods. It is entirely possible that this same thing happened to Odin, and that he somehow ascended into a god-like existence before succumbing to the curse of Zantetsuken (possibly becoming the "Demon" part of the Warring Triad...)

[Februs]

Unukalhai specifically states that Odin is an Eikon, and that Eikons are different than Primals. I'm aware Zantetsuken is the real threat from what is learned in the Odin (Extreme) plot, but as far as I'm concerned, Odin and Zantetsuken might as well be synonymous.

Odin, or the current incarnation of him that we are familiar with, is and Eikon, as in he is an Elder Primal. Eikons are different from Primals, but only in name and power.The essence of a Eikon is the same as a Primal. It is a summoned, god-like, being. That's it. The comparison someone else made in another thread was, "a Farrari is a super fast car... but it's still a car." Same deal.

Also, the version of Odin we are familiar with is a farce. It's similar to how Tiamat described Bahamut. This is not the real Odin. Zantetsuken is simply making a phantom. So, technically, the Odin we know is a Primal conjured by Zantetsuken, however, the real Odin may have an entirely different nature. So, we might have to be careful when referring to Odin in the future, as the Odin Zantetsuken summons is not the same as the real one, and we don't even know for sure that the real one is dead.

[Belhi]

Odin, or the current incarnation of him that we are familiar with, is and Eikon, as in he is an Elder Primal. Eikons are different from Primals, but only in name and power.The essence of a Eikon is the same as a Primal. It is a summoned, god-like, being. That's it. The comparison someone else made in another thread was, "a Farrari is a super fast car... but it's still a car." Same deal.

Also, the version of Odin we are familiar with is a farce. It's similar to how Tiamat described Bahamut. This is not the real Odin. Zantetsuken is simply making a phantom. So, technically, the Odin we know is a Primal conjured by Zantetsuken, however, the real Odin may have an entirely different nature. So, we might have to be careful when referring to Odin in the future, as the Odin Zantetsuken summons is not the same as the real one, and we don't even know for sure that the real one is dead.

They have said that Odin became a primal after taking up the cursed blade Zantetsuken. That would suggest that at least the original Primal version of Odin was the actual real Odin, turned primal similar to several other examples we have seen. Never the less Odin is very different and he isn't alone. Who exactly is worshipping the Warring Triad? It could be that true Eikon's require no worshipers.

[Kaiser-Ace]

They have said that Odin became a primal after taking up the cursed blade Zantetsuken. That would suggest that at least the original Primal version of Odin was the actual real Odin, turned primal similar to several other examples we have seen. Never the less Odin is very different and he isn't alone. Who exactly is worshipping the Warring Triad? It could be that true Eikon's require no worshipers.

That would probably make Zantetsuken the Eikon then and the "Odin" that is summoned using a thrall as a catalyst is a primal duplicate of the original Odin. After all, it may be possible that Odin was the 1st/Only being to ever wield it that it couldn't enthrall which could explain why it repeatedly summons a specific wielder.

[Berethos]

Isn't this debunked in game though?

Unukalhai specifically states that Odin is an Eikon, and that Eikons are different than Primals. I'm aware Zantetsuken is the real threat from what is learned in the Odin (Extreme) plot, but as far as I'm concerned, Odin and Zantetsuken might as well be synonymous.

What he says is in response to our character saying they are familiar with the threat of the Primals when he mentions the Eikons, and simply points out that the beings to which he refers are not the Primals we've seen thus far that are summoned by Beast tribes, and that Odin numbers among them.

From other evidence, it seems to suggest that the Eorzean group of Primals that we've faced that are summoned through the combination beliefs/prayers/worship and sufficient quantities of aether are simply one way for a being of power formed of aether to coalesce into existence, and that Eikons are similarly formed of aether but the way in which they come into being may differ (their continued existence may also not be dependent on sustained worship and sources of aether, but that's just speculation on my part and a current lack of a direct contradiction from our limited information on Eikons), and that according to Unukalhai we've only faced one of these other types when we faced Odin.

[Februs]

That would probably make Zantetsuken the Eikon then and the "Odin" that is summoned using a thrall as a catalyst is a primal duplicate of the original Odin. After all, it may be possible that Odin was the 1st/Only being to ever wield it that it couldn't enthrall which could explain why it repeatedly summons a specific wielder.

That's the common consensus in regards to Odin.

We're a little foggy on the specifics of what exactly happened to the real Odin. The lore panel specifies that he was corrupted by Zantetsuken, "becoming the Primal we all know and love/hate," however we don't know what actually happened to him. He was not sealed within Urth's fount with the sword, so there are some questions as to whether or not the real Odin is a Primal now or if he managed to survive the process.

Most people are assuming that the sword summons Odin's visage because Odin was the only warrior "worthy" to wield it. The assumption is based on the notion that if Zantetsuken is a Primal, than it's motivations and purpose are to be the strongest weapon ever forged and fight the most amazing battles (partly inspired by the whole "God of fighting" thing). So it continually seeks out worthy bodies that are capable of wielding its power. However, only Odin has proven worthy so far. This is also the theory for why the manifestation of Odin we fight is still looking for Urth. Because he's not real. The sword keeps summoning the same version of Odin that it is familiar with, the one that used it while trying to find Urth. Because the Odin we see is just a fantasy conjured up by the blade, it does not really have a mind and is reliving the same moments in time over and over again.