What is Zodiark?

[Februs]

Snip.

Ah, very true, very true. I had forgotten... though, point remains the same, and it actually strengthens the notion that Solkzagyl's method of raising a Pld is incorrect. He, himself, is a fine Pld, but he is utter rubbish at teaching new ones how to be a Pld lol.

It also made me wonder where they get these crystals. They say that the memory of former holders are within them, so does that mean that there are a fixed number of them that are being passed around? Or do they fashion new ones for each person and simply imbue them with the necessary knowledge and aether...?

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Ascians are the "Harbingers of Chaos" which means that they are neither light nor Darkness. So The WoL and WoD both are little more than pawns for the Chaos.

I'm not so sure about the "harbingers of Chaos" meaning they're neither light nor darkness. I think they're Harbingers of Chaos, yes, but in a world governed by Hydaelyn, because they seek to destroy her. In a world governed by Zodiark, they might be the guys that enforce "Harmony", meaning the guy that prevents their god and actual ruler of the world to be defeated.

Ascians seem closely related to Zodiark... They're not really fond of Elidibus, but they're allied to him for a while (Especially Lahabrea, which seems to be the Ascians' leader, even though he's not always listened to), so they're not Chaos, while Elidibus would be Harmony, which he really seems to represent.

Ascians are, in my opinion, the equivalent of scions of the Dark Side. Yes, they are really powerful, immortal and so, many things that the scions aren't, but they've been here for centuries. It wasn't on this thread, but I read a theory, the other day, saying that Ascians may have been WoL or WoD once, and that the power they gained made them the way they are now. I think it's oversimplifying, but I also think it may hold a part of the truth...

I can't picture Ascians not related to Zodiark, as I can't picture Minfillia not related to Hydaelyn.

[Februs]

Getting back on the topics of darkness...

The Ascions are an interesting bunch.

*Warning, MASSIVE FF Tactics spoilers here.

[SPOILER] In terms of their own "lore" again, SE is taking ques from FF Tactics. Each Ascian holds the name of a Lucavi from that game. In Tactics, the Lucavi were demons (each represented by a zodiac sign) that sought to revive their leader, Ultima, the High Seraph. The revival of Ultima required a very large blood sacrifice. So there are some parallels between the Ascians in FFXIV and the lucavi in tactics.

Also, the Lucavi have a false history in Tactics. The public record of the Zodiac stones counts them as "holy relics" that once belonged to the Zodiac Brave knights whom used their power to defeat a demon (presumably, Ultima). However, during coarse of the game, Ramza discovers a secret scripture or gospel of one of the followers of the Zodiac Braves that tells their true history, explaining the corruption of the crystals and the Demons they house.

In FFXII, this history is explained in a little more detail. It is stated that each of the Lucavi were created by the gods as a means of controlling or ruling over one or more specific parts of existence. For example: Mateus, the Corrupt, was born in opposition to Lahabrea, and was referred to as the Abyssal Celebrant and Scion of light. However, each of these godly creations were eventually corrupted either by their own job, like Mateus, or turned against the gods by Ultima (originally tasked with guiding souls to heaven and aiding in their resurrection) who led them in rebellion.

The only one who was not involved was Zodiark, who, though not explicitly stated as such, we can assume was born in opposition to Elidibus, as Elidibus was the one who originally summoned him in FF Tactics (though, under the name Zodiac, instead).

It is also noteworthy that while Elidibus is in FF Tactics, he stands apart from the remaining Lucavi. He is not part of the main story, and seems to have no relation to or interest in reviving Ultima. Likewise, in FFXIV, Elidibus stands apart from the remaining Ascians. Though, he seems to be far more attuned to Zodiark than any of them. If anything, it is implied that Elidibus is following the "True" path of the Ascians, doing only what is necessary. The remaining Ascians, similar to their Demon counterparts the Lucavi, have become corrupted by their own power and "job." Their goal is the same as Elidibus's, but they seem to have become lost in the many millennium they've been doing this. They take too much pleasure in the work and have fallen from their true path in favour of gratuitously causing choas for the sake of it. I have a feeling that they are misinterpreting Zodiark's will/needs. I also have a feeling that the "revival" of Zodiark requires a more specific ceremony that the other Ascian's have been ignoring or forgetting, and that only Elidibus is truly in the know. [/SPOILER]

[Nalien]

I'm just going to guess that Zodiark is one of the Twelve, and the Twelve should be Thirteen.

Why? That little comment Nabriales made about Lahabrea and Elidibus being "of this world". That implies, as a whole, Ascians are not of this world.

What does that have to do with the Twelve? Well, they famously left Hydaelyn. If, prior to the First Umbral Era, the Twelve (and presumably other Gods, who may well be Eikons at this point) lived alongside man in peace, until man started fighting, probably out of zealous devotion to a single God/Eikon, resulting in the Twelve leaving, since they'd recognize that they're (partly) the cause of the fighting... Well, that certainly seems how things should be, up until man ruined everything that is... The Ascians wish to return the world to how it was, so either way I think they have some connection to a time before the First Umbral Era... Zodiark being the forgotten member of the Twelve, who decided to return to see things put back to how they were? Fits nicely IMO, it works as a Final Fantasy XII reference, without being a direct copy, since it effectively flips things around (Zodiark being the rebel rather than Ultima). The Twelve left because it was the right thing to do, but Zodiark didn't want to, perhaps it was even his devout that were causing most of the problems, so they were sent away with him... Perhaps they're now the Ascians...

Of course, we should probably take mythology with a grain of salt... The Twelve didn't create Midgardsormr after all, he's a magical space dragon after all... Unless they did, and that's why he came from the stars, because that's where the Twelve left to... Seriously Midgardsormr, can you please start answering some questions? I don't know what's more unnerving... A taxi driver who awkwardly talks sports with you, when you have no understanding of said sports, or a taxi driver who gives you the silent treatment... You're the later Midgardsormr... Are you a serial killer? That's what it feels like...

Oh, and obviously Louisoix attempted to summon the Twelve... But well, Ysayle attempted to summon Saint Shiva, and Tiamat attempted to summon Bahamut... We know summoning is pretty bogus at this point...

So yeah... Prior to the First Umbral Era, Eikons and man live happily together, until they didn't for some reason. Zodiark is an Eikon, The Twelve are Eikons (#GaiusWasRight!). They left and forced Zodiark away with them, but he wants to return, and is presumably not happy about the whole affair, hence Ascians. They gave the Allag means to seal away Eikons too... Almost like they had some kind of grudge... Now, someone is probably going to point out that the Ascians want to release all the Eikons, but they don't... Lahabrea claimed the Primals were necessary for their plan (though he doesn't sound to happy about having to use them), but there is a distinction between Primal and Eikon... Unukalhai, who lets face it is, if not an Ascian, is at least working closely with Elidibus, claims that having Eikons unleashed would be bad, whats more he even suggests that the current Extremes aren't the work of the Ascians... Should I trust the little blighter? Probably not, but why would they write that in otherwise? If he really does have some connection with the Ascians, if he is honest about how this shouldn't be part of the Ascians plan (perhaps the other Ascians are misguided in attempting such things, but this isn't Zodiarks will?), then... Zodiark doesn't want Eikons to be released... Again, it's almost like he has a grudge against them...

And just because I can't go a moment without wanting to remind everyone that Free Companies are meant to be able to summon "Primals" eventually... This would mean Eikons are good... This would mean Eikons could be summoned by us to stop the Ascians... Might there be an Eikon Ifrit somewhere out there, and the current Ifrit is just an impostor? I sure hope so... Granted, Tiamat also claims the Eikons shouldn't be released, but she's been duped by the Ascians once before... Then there are those stranger readings at Urths Fount during 2.55... Why were they stranger? Was that researcher just that green? I'd have figured they'd all be pretty used to seeing the damage Primals caused by now... Odin isn't a Primal though, and that's probably what that was alluding to... But what if those readings were unusual because they suggested his presence was good? Guess we'll never know what was strange about them... Thanks Ilberd...

Oh right, the Warring Triad are Eikons... Hmmm, well in Final Fantasy VI they turned themselves to stone, given how hyped up they're being I kind of hope that's the case here too... If they had such limitless power, how'd the Allag seal them? I find it more likely they were already sealed when the Allag found them, and the Allag merely attempted to tap into their power while keeping them sealed. At the dawn of the First Umbral Era, the Twelve left Hydaelyn, while the Warring Triad turned themselves to stone, I think that would fit nicely... Unukalhai, and thus Elidibus/Zodiark, then don't want them being released because they'd probably be on-par with the Twelve and Zodiark and likely to deal with Zodiark... We perhaps also don't want them getting loose, since I can't imagine an Eikon showdown would be good for us, even if unlike Primals, Eikons aren't bad for Hydaelyn... Though I find it more likely that a certain Garlean Legate is going to absorb them at some point anyway...

[Kuwagami]

Last edited by Nalien; Today at 10:00 PM. Reason: this is what happens when you take my server away for 34 hours!

keep the flow going, you're great at it

one more stone to the foundation : if zodiark was one of the gods, then what of Hydaelyn ? The Usurper... A wannabe god who borrowed Zodiark's power somehow, thus achieving his sealing when he returned to our world ? One of the twelves who came back to ensure Zodiark remains sealed forever ? none of the above, and an other entity we never heard about in the Eorzean mythology ?

(btw, if I happen to see you some day on cerberus, I'll be sure to /wave you )

[Februs]

I'm just going to guess that Zodiark is one of the Twelve, and the Twelve should be Thirteen.

I like it. It references the thirteenth constellation that is only briefly mentioned in FF Tactics and XII, and it actually fits quite nicely as a mirrored image of the True Scriptures (the name of which I cannot remember, for the life of me...) that Ramza finds in FF Tactics. In that version of history, the Knights 12 were not actually heroes who followed a saint, but rather, they were super villains whom attempted to summon demon. Zodiark seems like a good stand in for Ultima.

Obviously, the comparison is not without its holes, and the idea that Zodiark is a 13th member of the 12 is not without its faults, but it seems to fit. At the very least it brings up some questions about the original 12, since we really have no intel on them or their goals/purpose. If Zodiark is not a member of them, I would be willing to bet that they were at least involved with him in some way. The only question is, who's side were they on? We're assuming that they were on Hydaelyn's side, but if that's the case, why did they have to leave after Zodiark's defeat and confinement? I'm honestly starting to wonder if the original 12 were not quite as goody two-shoes as we have been led to believe.

In the Zodiark web of relations, it seems like we're looking at mirror images of the Ivalice lore. At the top, we have Hydaelyn and Zodiark (who's status is questionable. He could be Hysaelyn's direct opposite. He could be a failed or creation of the Gods whom grew too strong, like in FFXII. Or he could be a 13th member of the 12). Below them we have the 12, and below the 12 we have their human representatives, who are the Ascians/echo users/ original relic wielders... and I guess technically the scions. (I mention the original relic wielders because, in the relic weapon lore, part of their trials were to face off against demons, and given the zodiac references, I have trouble not drawing a comparison to the history in Tactics.)

Zodiark seems to be standing in for Ultima. Regardless of what he ends up being, this seems to be the case. It is possible that he is, like in XII, a mere tool for an even greater God that was sealed so he could not be used (ie: Ultima would have loved to have Zodiark on her side, but he was too busy being locked in a mine somewhere and time frozen as a child), but without any references to that "greater god" we can do nothing but assume that Zodiark is taking the place of Ultima in FFXIV

The Ascians seem to be standing in for the Zodiac Braves in Tactics: Demon possessed/zodiac sign related entities seeking to free their god. Though not strictly human, they are humanoid and each relate to a specific zodiac sign. I wouldn't say that they translate specifically to the Demon's (Lucavi) themselves, but they seem to be the humanoid hosts those Zodiac entities. Also, In FFXIV they seem to have a counter-part in the original relic wielders. It is possible that they "demons" the original relic wielder fought were the Ascians or their demonic creations.

This brings us to the middle tier, which is the 12 themselves... This one I have trouble with, because the 12 are a mirror image of... um... well, to be honest, the only creatures in the Tactics/XII world that resemble the 12 (god-like beings whom are represented by zodiac signs)... are the Lucavi. With the exception of being evil, the Lucavi would seem to be identical to to the 12. That would seem to imply that the 12 are actually ... demons.... weird, right? The 12 are made out to be good in FFXIV (which would, ironically, make them a true mirror image of the Lucavi), so it's hard to swallow that they might actually not be... that being said, the original Zodiac Braves in FF Tactics were supposed to be good, and had an entire religion based on their exploits under the saint they followed... yet they all turned out to be demon worshiping psychopaths who completely obliterated an entire civilization...

I dunno, maybe I'm crazy. FFXIV could completely rewrite all this. It is its own game, after all... but I am seeing an awful lot of similarities...

[Morningstar1337]

This brings us to the middle tier, which is the 12 themselves... This one I have trouble with, because the 12 are a mirror image of... um... well, to be honest, the only creatures in the Tactics/XII world that resemble the 12 (god-like beings whom are represented by zodiac signs)... are the Lucavi. With the exception of being evil, the Lucavi would seem to be identical to to the 12. That would seem to imply that the 12 are actually ... demons.... weird, right? The 12 are made out to be good in FFXIV (which would, ironically, make them a true mirror image of the Lucavi), so it's hard to swallow that they might actually not be... that being said, the original Zodiac Braves in FF Tactics were supposed to be good, and had an entire religion based on their exploits under the saint they followed... yet they all turned out to be demon worshiping psychopaths who completely obliterated an entire civilization...

Well the antagonist of Heavenwards was a clergy of a religion dedicated to one of the Twelve (Halone). Beyond that there's also: (All refernces to Elidbidus are to the XIV version, not the XII/Tactics version)

• Azeyma's silence after things go pearshaped for the Scions the first time (Noraxia's death, Minfilia, Tataru, Urianger and Papalymo being captured, etc)
• Gaius' comments about the Twelve being no different from the primals (granted he was a little biased)
• Astrologian aside, they seem to be better stand in for a Zodiac system, 12 figures, each tied to a month. Nald'Thal is even an ersatz of an actual Zodiac sign (Gemini). I point this out because XII's espers were directly based on the western Zodiac
• Ever since Ifrit, the concept of faith being used for malicious ends and to a lesser extent Gods controlling the fate of sentient beings had been circulating around the game with varying degrees of blatancy. The latter theme is also one found in Ivalice (Specifically and coincidentally, XII)
• Elidibius is the sole member of an antagonist group with his own agenda, Venat in XII was the sole member of the Occuria (the gods) with his own agenda of relinquishing their control over man's destiny to man themselves. The roles might be reversed regarding who is trying to manipulate the heroes (The Occuria wanted to make Ashe the next Dynast-King [or rather Queen] to continue their rule, in contrast only Elidbius seems interested in in getting the Warrior of Light on his side, thought time will tell for what reason and for how long that intrust lasts). As a result both groups with the intent of manipulating the heroes had been thwarted thus far (Ashe deciding that the Occuria was wrong, effectively giving Venat's ideology a swift victory. The only reason Venat's own champion was a problem was more because he was in the middle of destroying Ashe's home land, not because of their ideology, (beyond the extent of extremism that is). Likewise the WoL has defied Eldibius by proxy, being so overwhelming with power and Light that he had to call in the Warrior of Darkness [the proxy part comes in when he goes forthe Ascian Elidibus didn't have issue with compared to Lahabrea])
  • With that in mind there are still similarities Between Elidibius and Venat, in that they both know something the protagonists do not and that they Might (key world: might) have benevolent goals.
  • By the same token Zodiark in XII is also unique among the Luvaci, in the the was unable to take part in Ultima's rebellion

This means that i have a few predictions for what's to come when the WoL faces Eldibidus one last time:

• The Garlean legion of that arc will be the XII, headed by a legatus similar to either Gabranth, Vayne or maybe Larsa (if the latter, he will attempt to reform the system from within, as a result being more willing to work with Eorzea than the other Legions...if Garlean red tape or a more gung-ho superior didn't get in the way. If a Vayne ersatz then he will actually be Working with Elidibius, if not outright be the Warrior of Darkness, if Garbranth then I expect a NPC to pop up by the respective xpac, or themes of lost honor, betrayal, and conflicting loyalties. Ot the legatus could be all three at once.)
• The Primals will be based on the Luvaci with the possible exception of Zodiarc.
• Aside from Elidibus, the other Ascian we'll face will be dubbed "Altima" (to distinguish her from a certain Weapon) and will likely be among the last Ascians to be destroyed. However to complete the Lucavi theme, her stint as a Paragon will be to cultivate a cult of personality and using that to return as a Primal (In fact given Ultima in XII is a Lucifer analogue, this may include pretending to be a Paragon), as an attempt to circumvent the Blade of Light. In fact she might also take "Ajora Glabados" as an alias and using her actual name as a title, to that end.
• Elidibus will make his intentions clear and from there the WoL will join him (or conversely he will aid the Scions) or the WoD will betray him, or he dies, depending on said intentions and the actual nature of Hydalyn and Zodiark, this means that this is also where Hydalyan's true colors are shown, whether they be of similar hues as to before or be 50 shades darker.
• The fate of Unukalhai would also play into this, but because someone has to give out the HW EX quests then either these quests will gate that part of the MSQ or He will get invincible plot armor.
• General themes that are focused on will be that escapism (the Tactics advance games), Gnostic elements, and who should control the fate of man (Both from XII).

[Kaiser-Ace]

I'm not so sure about the "harbingers of Chaos" meaning they're neither light nor darkness. I think they're Harbingers of Chaos, yes, but in a world governed by Hydaelyn, because they seek to destroy her. In a world governed by Zodiark, they might be the guys that enforce "Harmony", meaning the guy that prevents their god and actual ruler of the world to be defeated.

Chaos is Chaos though, not Darkness

Nebraulus cared nothing about Zodiark and simply wanted to see all destroyed, Lahabrea was fat from the leader as, with the exception of Nebraulus and Igyorum, few if any Ascians supported him. Elidibus is the undisputed Leader as even Lahabrea wouldn't cross him intentionally.

If Hydaelyn is Light and Zodiark is Darkness then The Scions are Order and The Ascians are Chaos. " Harmony" is not possible with either Hydaelyn OR Zodiark Sealed, but Ballence for one or the other can be maintained. Thus enter the WoL and WoD.

[Enkidoh]

I'm just going to guess that Zodiark is one of the Twelve, and the Twelve should be Thirteen.

Technically, the Twelve already is thirteen, given the fact Nald'thal is actually two separate gods classed as one divinity (Nald and Thal), but I digress...

[Morningstar1337]

Technically, the Twelve already is thirteen, given the fact Nald'thal is actually two separate gods classed as one divinity (Nald and Thal), but I digress...

You could ay the same about the Normal Zodiac signs also being 13 with Castor and Pollux, techincally. but what Naelien meant was that there were thirteen "symbols" instead of 12 (Since Nald and Thal count as one)