What is Zodiark?

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Ascians are the "Harbingers of Chaos" which means that they are neither light nor Darkness. So The WoL and WoD both are little more than pawns for the Chaos.

I'm not so sure about the "harbingers of Chaos" meaning they're neither light nor darkness. I think they're Harbingers of Chaos, yes, but in a world governed by Hydaelyn, because they seek to destroy her. In a world governed by Zodiark, they might be the guys that enforce "Harmony", meaning the guy that prevents their god and actual ruler of the world to be defeated.

Ascians seem closely related to Zodiark... They're not really fond of Elidibus, but they're allied to him for a while (Especially Lahabrea, which seems to be the Ascians' leader, even though he's not always listened to), so they're not Chaos, while Elidibus would be Harmony, which he really seems to represent.

Ascians are, in my opinion, the equivalent of scions of the Dark Side. Yes, they are really powerful, immortal and so, many things that the scions aren't, but they've been here for centuries. It wasn't on this thread, but I read a theory, the other day, saying that Ascians may have been WoL or WoD once, and that the power they gained made them the way they are now. I think it's oversimplifying, but I also think it may hold a part of the truth...

I can't picture Ascians not related to Zodiark, as I can't picture Minfillia not related to Hydaelyn.

[Razem5791]

Zodiark was the deadliest summon in FF12 and he officially appeared first there. The Ascians kept talking about Bahamut as a supreme being and we all know that it is compared to the primals like Ifrit and company. BUT by the way I see the ascians revering Zodiark, I strongly believe it must be a supreme primal but at the difference of Bahamut, I believe it's a deity and possibly as powerful as Hyadelyn. The ascians are revering it, meaning they must fear it too and you see how tough it is to kill just one ascian ???

[Kuwagami]

you see how tough it is to kill just one ascian ???

actually, killing an ascian is fairly easy. It has just been made hard because we can't possibly drain Hydealyn's aether every time we want to slay one. Thus we need to find vessels to gather enough aether, in order to form the sword of light and crush them for good. The only difficult part is to find such a vessel. Had we found a cargo of auracite, we could just go and wipe out the entire Ascian order.

[Nalien]

I'm just going to guess that Zodiark is one of the Twelve, and the Twelve should be Thirteen.

Why? That little comment Nabriales made about Lahabrea and Elidibus being "of this world". That implies, as a whole, Ascians are not of this world.

What does that have to do with the Twelve? Well, they famously left Hydaelyn. If, prior to the First Umbral Era, the Twelve (and presumably other Gods, who may well be Eikons at this point) lived alongside man in peace, until man started fighting, probably out of zealous devotion to a single God/Eikon, resulting in the Twelve leaving, since they'd recognize that they're (partly) the cause of the fighting... Well, that certainly seems how things should be, up until man ruined everything that is... The Ascians wish to return the world to how it was, so either way I think they have some connection to a time before the First Umbral Era... Zodiark being the forgotten member of the Twelve, who decided to return to see things put back to how they were? Fits nicely IMO, it works as a Final Fantasy XII reference, without being a direct copy, since it effectively flips things around (Zodiark being the rebel rather than Ultima). The Twelve left because it was the right thing to do, but Zodiark didn't want to, perhaps it was even his devout that were causing most of the problems, so they were sent away with him... Perhaps they're now the Ascians...

Of course, we should probably take mythology with a grain of salt... The Twelve didn't create Midgardsormr after all, he's a magical space dragon after all... Unless they did, and that's why he came from the stars, because that's where the Twelve left to... Seriously Midgardsormr, can you please start answering some questions? I don't know what's more unnerving... A taxi driver who awkwardly talks sports with you, when you have no understanding of said sports, or a taxi driver who gives you the silent treatment... You're the later Midgardsormr... Are you a serial killer? That's what it feels like...

Oh, and obviously Louisoix attempted to summon the Twelve... But well, Ysayle attempted to summon Saint Shiva, and Tiamat attempted to summon Bahamut... We know summoning is pretty bogus at this point...

So yeah... Prior to the First Umbral Era, Eikons and man live happily together, until they didn't for some reason. Zodiark is an Eikon, The Twelve are Eikons (#GaiusWasRight!). They left and forced Zodiark away with them, but he wants to return, and is presumably not happy about the whole affair, hence Ascians. They gave the Allag means to seal away Eikons too... Almost like they had some kind of grudge... Now, someone is probably going to point out that the Ascians want to release all the Eikons, but they don't... Lahabrea claimed the Primals were necessary for their plan (though he doesn't sound to happy about having to use them), but there is a distinction between Primal and Eikon... Unukalhai, who lets face it is, if not an Ascian, is at least working closely with Elidibus, claims that having Eikons unleashed would be bad, whats more he even suggests that the current Extremes aren't the work of the Ascians... Should I trust the little blighter? Probably not, but why would they write that in otherwise? If he really does have some connection with the Ascians, if he is honest about how this shouldn't be part of the Ascians plan (perhaps the other Ascians are misguided in attempting such things, but this isn't Zodiarks will?), then... Zodiark doesn't want Eikons to be released... Again, it's almost like he has a grudge against them...

And just because I can't go a moment without wanting to remind everyone that Free Companies are meant to be able to summon "Primals" eventually... This would mean Eikons are good... This would mean Eikons could be summoned by us to stop the Ascians... Might there be an Eikon Ifrit somewhere out there, and the current Ifrit is just an impostor? I sure hope so... Granted, Tiamat also claims the Eikons shouldn't be released, but she's been duped by the Ascians once before... Then there are those stranger readings at Urths Fount during 2.55... Why were they stranger? Was that researcher just that green? I'd have figured they'd all be pretty used to seeing the damage Primals caused by now... Odin isn't a Primal though, and that's probably what that was alluding to... But what if those readings were unusual because they suggested his presence was good? Guess we'll never know what was strange about them... Thanks Ilberd...

Oh right, the Warring Triad are Eikons... Hmmm, well in Final Fantasy VI they turned themselves to stone, given how hyped up they're being I kind of hope that's the case here too... If they had such limitless power, how'd the Allag seal them? I find it more likely they were already sealed when the Allag found them, and the Allag merely attempted to tap into their power while keeping them sealed. At the dawn of the First Umbral Era, the Twelve left Hydaelyn, while the Warring Triad turned themselves to stone, I think that would fit nicely... Unukalhai, and thus Elidibus/Zodiark, then don't want them being released because they'd probably be on-par with the Twelve and Zodiark and likely to deal with Zodiark... We perhaps also don't want them getting loose, since I can't imagine an Eikon showdown would be good for us, even if unlike Primals, Eikons aren't bad for Hydaelyn... Though I find it more likely that a certain Garlean Legate is going to absorb them at some point anyway...

[Kuwagami]

Last edited by Nalien; Today at 10:00 PM. Reason: this is what happens when you take my server away for 34 hours!

keep the flow going, you're great at it

one more stone to the foundation : if zodiark was one of the gods, then what of Hydaelyn ? The Usurper... A wannabe god who borrowed Zodiark's power somehow, thus achieving his sealing when he returned to our world ? One of the twelves who came back to ensure Zodiark remains sealed forever ? none of the above, and an other entity we never heard about in the Eorzean mythology ?

(btw, if I happen to see you some day on cerberus, I'll be sure to /wave you )

[Nalien]

one more stone to the foundation : if zodiark was one of the gods, then what of Hydaelyn ? The Usurper... A wannabe god who borrowed Zodiark's power somehow, thus achieving his sealing when he returned to our world ? One of the twelves who came back to ensure Zodiark remains sealed forever ? none of the above, and an other entity we never heard about in the Eorzean mythology ?

That's a difficult one... Just another Eikon who was chosen to remain and unite all mortals? Effectively the actual Goddess who created the Eikons? I'd lean towards the later given how she's talked about in various lore panels... Zodiark, then, doesn't get why she'd favour mortals and would aim to usurp her...

I am incline to think that ultimately she is just the most powerful Primal/Eikon though, to the point where she can create others (plot twist: Primals are just unsanctioned Eikons, that's why they're damaging, if Hydaelyn "summoned" Ifrit, instead of the Amalj'aa, he'd be an Eikon perhaps)... Something about Alexander has me speculating that Hydaelyn (the planet) is effectively just a massive Primal/Eikon... Alexander is the biggest Primal so far (well, second to Bahamut I guess) and the Illuminati seem to believe they'll survive inside him, acknowledging that a Primal such as Alexander will drain the land and result in ruin, but confident that they'll be protected inside and he'll sustain them... Take that and make a planet sized Primal/Eikon, and I think you have Hydaelyn... The Mother Crystal we frequently talk to? Remember finding Bahamut after T5? He had a fairly nice Crystal Heart, did he not? Same thing... The Burning Heart contained Bahamut Prime, I imagine the Mother Crystal contains Hydaelyn Prime and that's who we talk to, while the planet we walk on is the same as us fighting on Bahamuts claw/inside Alexander, if Hydaelyn truly is a Primal/Eikon that is...

(btw, if I happen to see you some day on cerberus, I'll be sure to /wave you )

/wave to the right person, I'm... unable to post here on my own account... >_>

[Februs]

I am incline to think that ultimately she is just the most powerful Primal/Eikon though, to the point where she can create others (plot twist: Primals are just unsanctioned Eikons, that's why they're damaging, if Hydaelyn "summoned" Ifrit, instead of the Amalj'aa, he'd be an Eikon perhaps)

I dunno... I have trouble picturing Hydaelyn and Zodiark as simple Eikons. I mean, it is definitely possible, but they don't seem to fit. Primals seem too limited...

So far, we have different levels of "God-like" beings that have some linguistically confused names, but the Odin lore panel seems to have (somewhat) cleared some of it up. From that we have learned (although there's still a lot of back and forth on it in regards to the exact definitions) that the lowest level is "Primals" or "Toshin" (the Allagan term for Primal, meaning "god of fighting"). Then, above them, is "Elder Primal" or "Eikon" (the Allagan term for Elder Primal). Now, what they have not stated is if there is a level above these two, or if all "God-like beings" can be categorized under one of these two settings. However, if you consider the known characteristics of Primals (elder or otherwise) it's hard to believe that Hydaelyn or Zodiark could be sustained in the same way as which Primals are.

For one, can we honestly say that Hydaelyn has enough "true believers" who offer up their prayers with Aether and Crystals in order to sustain her? Considering the rather extreme methods of ceremonies that have been required to create and sustain more powerful versions of Primals (ie: live sacrifice for some extreme versions, or tens of thousands of tortured followers in other cases) what would be the nature of Hydaelyn's continued existence?

Worse yet, consider Zodiark. He, certainly, does not have enough followers to warrant his existence as a Primal on the same level as Hydaelyn. No one aside from the Ascians worships him, or even knows about him. It's kind of hard to offer your faith to a god you don't even know, so I just don't see this as being the basis of their existence. Personally, I'm more inclined to see entities like Zodiark and Hydaelyn (and maybe the 12 and the Warring Triad) as "true gods," rather than Primals. Obviously I'm speculating, but what I mean here is that, contrary to any Primals we know of, neither Hydaelyn or Zodiark require faith or belief to sustain themselves. They are not insubstantial aetheric beings, but real physical beings that can manipulate, or perhaps even spawn, massive amounts of aether.

[Nalien]

Worse yet, consider Zodiark. He, certainly, does not have enough followers to warrant his existence as a Primal on the same level as Hydaelyn.

That's exactly why I suggest that they are in fact Eikons. Case and point; How many followers does Odin have? None, perhaps one at best if he is tempering someone to manifest himself... Eikons aren't simply a higher level Primal, there seems to be something special about them... Even the Ascians seem to have some distinction between them; They need the Primals for their plan, but, at least based on Unukalhai (who just has to have some connection to the Ascians), they don't want Eikons being released. Why? If Eikons are just stronger Primals, wouldn't Eikons be better to speed up their plans? The only conclusion I can come to is that Primals are bad, and Eikons are good, either that or Unukalhai is innocent, despite that post credits scene at 2.55...

Considering the rather extreme methods of ceremonies that have been required to create and sustain more powerful versions of Primals (ie: live sacrifice for some extreme versions, or tens of thousands of tortured followers in other cases) what would be the nature of Hydaelyn's continued existence?

Funny you should mention live sacrifices... What is one of the key points about life on Hydaelyn? The Lifestream... When NPCs die, they return to the Lifestream, which is a part of Hydaelyn, until their aether (but seemingly not them) is recycled for new life... We even have someone (Y'shtola) who has basically inhabited the Lifestream now, and it didn't seem like a particularly pleasant place to be... Certainly not for clothing, at least...

[Februs]

I'm just going to guess that Zodiark is one of the Twelve, and the Twelve should be Thirteen.

I like it. It references the thirteenth constellation that is only briefly mentioned in FF Tactics and XII, and it actually fits quite nicely as a mirrored image of the True Scriptures (the name of which I cannot remember, for the life of me...) that Ramza finds in FF Tactics. In that version of history, the Knights 12 were not actually heroes who followed a saint, but rather, they were super villains whom attempted to summon demon. Zodiark seems like a good stand in for Ultima.

Obviously, the comparison is not without its holes, and the idea that Zodiark is a 13th member of the 12 is not without its faults, but it seems to fit. At the very least it brings up some questions about the original 12, since we really have no intel on them or their goals/purpose. If Zodiark is not a member of them, I would be willing to bet that they were at least involved with him in some way. The only question is, who's side were they on? We're assuming that they were on Hydaelyn's side, but if that's the case, why did they have to leave after Zodiark's defeat and confinement? I'm honestly starting to wonder if the original 12 were not quite as goody two-shoes as we have been led to believe.

In the Zodiark web of relations, it seems like we're looking at mirror images of the Ivalice lore. At the top, we have Hydaelyn and Zodiark (who's status is questionable. He could be Hysaelyn's direct opposite. He could be a failed or creation of the Gods whom grew too strong, like in FFXII. Or he could be a 13th member of the 12). Below them we have the 12, and below the 12 we have their human representatives, who are the Ascians/echo users/ original relic wielders... and I guess technically the scions. (I mention the original relic wielders because, in the relic weapon lore, part of their trials were to face off against demons, and given the zodiac references, I have trouble not drawing a comparison to the history in Tactics.)

Zodiark seems to be standing in for Ultima. Regardless of what he ends up being, this seems to be the case. It is possible that he is, like in XII, a mere tool for an even greater God that was sealed so he could not be used (ie: Ultima would have loved to have Zodiark on her side, but he was too busy being locked in a mine somewhere and time frozen as a child), but without any references to that "greater god" we can do nothing but assume that Zodiark is taking the place of Ultima in FFXIV

The Ascians seem to be standing in for the Zodiac Braves in Tactics: Demon possessed/zodiac sign related entities seeking to free their god. Though not strictly human, they are humanoid and each relate to a specific zodiac sign. I wouldn't say that they translate specifically to the Demon's (Lucavi) themselves, but they seem to be the humanoid hosts those Zodiac entities. Also, In FFXIV they seem to have a counter-part in the original relic wielders. It is possible that they "demons" the original relic wielder fought were the Ascians or their demonic creations.

This brings us to the middle tier, which is the 12 themselves... This one I have trouble with, because the 12 are a mirror image of... um... well, to be honest, the only creatures in the Tactics/XII world that resemble the 12 (god-like beings whom are represented by zodiac signs)... are the Lucavi. With the exception of being evil, the Lucavi would seem to be identical to to the 12. That would seem to imply that the 12 are actually ... demons.... weird, right? The 12 are made out to be good in FFXIV (which would, ironically, make them a true mirror image of the Lucavi), so it's hard to swallow that they might actually not be... that being said, the original Zodiac Braves in FF Tactics were supposed to be good, and had an entire religion based on their exploits under the saint they followed... yet they all turned out to be demon worshiping psychopaths who completely obliterated an entire civilization...

I dunno, maybe I'm crazy. FFXIV could completely rewrite all this. It is its own game, after all... but I am seeing an awful lot of similarities...

[Morningstar1337]

This brings us to the middle tier, which is the 12 themselves... This one I have trouble with, because the 12 are a mirror image of... um... well, to be honest, the only creatures in the Tactics/XII world that resemble the 12 (god-like beings whom are represented by zodiac signs)... are the Lucavi. With the exception of being evil, the Lucavi would seem to be identical to to the 12. That would seem to imply that the 12 are actually ... demons.... weird, right? The 12 are made out to be good in FFXIV (which would, ironically, make them a true mirror image of the Lucavi), so it's hard to swallow that they might actually not be... that being said, the original Zodiac Braves in FF Tactics were supposed to be good, and had an entire religion based on their exploits under the saint they followed... yet they all turned out to be demon worshiping psychopaths who completely obliterated an entire civilization...

Well the antagonist of Heavenwards was a clergy of a religion dedicated to one of the Twelve (Halone). Beyond that there's also: (All refernces to Elidbidus are to the XIV version, not the XII/Tactics version)

• Azeyma's silence after things go pearshaped for the Scions the first time (Noraxia's death, Minfilia, Tataru, Urianger and Papalymo being captured, etc)
• Gaius' comments about the Twelve being no different from the primals (granted he was a little biased)
• Astrologian aside, they seem to be better stand in for a Zodiac system, 12 figures, each tied to a month. Nald'Thal is even an ersatz of an actual Zodiac sign (Gemini). I point this out because XII's espers were directly based on the western Zodiac
• Ever since Ifrit, the concept of faith being used for malicious ends and to a lesser extent Gods controlling the fate of sentient beings had been circulating around the game with varying degrees of blatancy. The latter theme is also one found in Ivalice (Specifically and coincidentally, XII)
• Elidibius is the sole member of an antagonist group with his own agenda, Venat in XII was the sole member of the Occuria (the gods) with his own agenda of relinquishing their control over man's destiny to man themselves. The roles might be reversed regarding who is trying to manipulate the heroes (The Occuria wanted to make Ashe the next Dynast-King [or rather Queen] to continue their rule, in contrast only Elidbius seems interested in in getting the Warrior of Light on his side, thought time will tell for what reason and for how long that intrust lasts). As a result both groups with the intent of manipulating the heroes had been thwarted thus far (Ashe deciding that the Occuria was wrong, effectively giving Venat's ideology a swift victory. The only reason Venat's own champion was a problem was more because he was in the middle of destroying Ashe's home land, not because of their ideology, (beyond the extent of extremism that is). Likewise the WoL has defied Eldibius by proxy, being so overwhelming with power and Light that he had to call in the Warrior of Darkness [the proxy part comes in when he goes forthe Ascian Elidibus didn't have issue with compared to Lahabrea])
  • With that in mind there are still similarities Between Elidibius and Venat, in that they both know something the protagonists do not and that they Might (key world: might) have benevolent goals.
  • By the same token Zodiark in XII is also unique among the Luvaci, in the the was unable to take part in Ultima's rebellion

This means that i have a few predictions for what's to come when the WoL faces Eldibidus one last time:

• The Garlean legion of that arc will be the XII, headed by a legatus similar to either Gabranth, Vayne or maybe Larsa (if the latter, he will attempt to reform the system from within, as a result being more willing to work with Eorzea than the other Legions...if Garlean red tape or a more gung-ho superior didn't get in the way. If a Vayne ersatz then he will actually be Working with Elidibius, if not outright be the Warrior of Darkness, if Garbranth then I expect a NPC to pop up by the respective xpac, or themes of lost honor, betrayal, and conflicting loyalties. Ot the legatus could be all three at once.)
• The Primals will be based on the Luvaci with the possible exception of Zodiarc.
• Aside from Elidibus, the other Ascian we'll face will be dubbed "Altima" (to distinguish her from a certain Weapon) and will likely be among the last Ascians to be destroyed. However to complete the Lucavi theme, her stint as a Paragon will be to cultivate a cult of personality and using that to return as a Primal (In fact given Ultima in XII is a Lucifer analogue, this may include pretending to be a Paragon), as an attempt to circumvent the Blade of Light. In fact she might also take "Ajora Glabados" as an alias and using her actual name as a title, to that end.
• Elidibus will make his intentions clear and from there the WoL will join him (or conversely he will aid the Scions) or the WoD will betray him, or he dies, depending on said intentions and the actual nature of Hydalyn and Zodiark, this means that this is also where Hydalyan's true colors are shown, whether they be of similar hues as to before or be 50 shades darker.
• The fate of Unukalhai would also play into this, but because someone has to give out the HW EX quests then either these quests will gate that part of the MSQ or He will get invincible plot armor.
• General themes that are focused on will be that escapism (the Tactics advance games), Gnostic elements, and who should control the fate of man (Both from XII).