"Who...what are you?"

[Morningstar1337]

which in turn has lead to serious social equality and abuses of lower classes...

Typos create contradictions and mutually exclusive attributes

[Kuwagami]

I think you're either looking too deep into this or are trying to make a HUGE claim that the WOL is actually a villain that doesn't see what their actions is causing just to say that "we're the real bad guys". Final Fantasy is always going to have the player be the heroes in one form or another that eventually works out in the end.

Thing is, we really are a warrior of light, becoming a super powerful killing machina (we have slain quite a few beastmen, mighians, dragons, Garleans, primals, and even 2 immortal beings. Granted their immortality had flaws, but still). Wether our actions are good or not isn't really us to tell. Yeah we stopped the Garlean invasion which would have ended in a bloodshed. Yeah we stopped (or started to stop) a millenium-old war between dragons and Ishgardians (technically, ishgardians vs ishgardians). And yeah we stopped the rampage and aether sucking process of a lot of primals.

All of these might be considered good (depends on the point of view for the Garlean episode), but in the end, what resulted is that we became overpowered, even for the taste of Elidibus who is more aiming for balance between Light and Darkness than the mere return of Zodiark (as much as I understand what that shadowy character thinks). So far, he hadn't done anything against us and was super pissed by Lahabrea and Nabriales's attempts to kill us.

What we, as the WoL, do with that power will be the key factor that will determine wether we bring harm to the world or not. But I am of the opinion that overthrowing the balance between Light and Darkness as we currently do (not by our own chief, but we're still doing it because of everything that is thrown at us) isn't really the good thing.



From a RP perspective, Kuwagami has become some kind of a sadist over the time spent slaying countless fanatic beastmen, dragons, and primals (the warrior's blood is boiling hard). My guess is that Thordan couldn't believe that he enjoyed fighting and slaying his enemies so much. He's some kind of monster in the inside.

[Kallera]

Thordan was in a position of authority with the influence to transition Ishgard into a less socially imbalanced society and therefore avoid potential civil unrest. Lets be clear. We had already removed Nidhogg when Thordan left. He didn't need the power of a primal to defeat that dragon anymore. The Horde had had its head cut off.

Thordan needed the power in order to best the Ascians, beings we cannot be relied upon to kill without considerable set up and expensive rocks. It was a surprise that Urianger found even a second for us to take with us to azis lla.

Even with Nidhoog dead, the lands of dravania is rife with proof of letting Ascian meddling go out of hand. And Thordan clearly had a deal with these beings. He wanted(and, in his view, needed) to put one over on them or Ishgard's society would never be safe.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Even with Nidhoog dead, the lands of dravania is rife with proof of letting Ascian meddling go out of hand. And Thordan clearly had a deal with these beings. He wanted(and, in his view, needed) to put one over on them or Ishgard's society would never be safe.

I'm not sure I understand, There... As it appears to me, Thordan never allied with the Ascians, both sides were just playing fools of each other... Thordan thought the Ascians would fall in his trap, and the Ascians thought Thordan would fall in their trap. And Dravania and the Ascians have nothing to do with one another, we only know that Ascians helped summoning Bahamut (And Alexander, probably, although I'm not sure it is said, but I can be wrong).

And yes, I know what Hydaelyn is supposed to be the source of all life... But that's what we're told, and we're not necessarily told the truth... Hydaelyn herself and Minfillia told us so, Midgardsormr seems to be Hydaelyn's vassal, but that doesn't mean Hydaelyn is good while Zodiark is bad. We only know that Primals bleed Hydaelyn dry, enabling Zodiark to return. Thordan wanted to become a new god, maybe, but so he could take care of Zodiark and Hydaelyn, ensuring that no deity would ever intercede in the mortals' life anymore. Honestly... That's not so bad.

And for the twelve's sake, stop assuming things over Thordan, you don't have more proofs that he was going to be a tyrant than I do to prove he was going to be great. He's dead. Maybe he would have been a bad ruler and we would have killed him, maybe he would have been a precious ally, once we discussed with him. Maybe he was enforcing Ishgard's old ways up till the end of the war, because it was needed for him to gather enough power to win it, and would have let Aymeric rule, or any other guy that was good enough for the job. Maybe he was going to rule the theocracy as he always did, being a bad guy. The thing is, we won't ever know.

Finally, Aymeric didn't go to Thordan to reason him, he went to demand that Thordan ceases his actions, and probably take a personnal revenge for being a bastard son. Thordan thought about this plan for decades, and was convinced it was for the greater good, why would he listen to a capricious child that only sees a part of the bigger truth ? Try to walk in his shoes : he had absolutely no reason to listen to Aymeric, nor could he explain Aymeric his plan, since the ascians were probably there.

I still don't get why you all need... baddies. That's a very manichean way to see the lore, I think... Yeah, Thordan was an enemy, but he wasn't a bad guy. Like most FF villains, to be honest.

It was a surprise that Urianger found even a second for us to take with us to azis lla.

A gift from Elidibus, probably...

[Kallera]

Yes Thordan and the Ascians were playing off of each other,due to the dragon war, and with the war over said act would have to be dealt with.

At any rate, what was once an endless creed of badassery is now also thought provoking of our existence among others, with fan theories questioning just how human were are, or if we are perhaps losing ourselves to our purpose as Eorzea's and hydelyn's champion, becoming a "weapon of light".

The need to paint Thordan as evil, or to simplify the matter to black and white, makes it easier to swallow, "we had no choice" and well, we probably didn't. But intention doesn't seem to be much of a defense when becoming superhuman in Eorzea.

Which bring us back to why the question is an important one when applied to us.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

I fully agree with you, Kallera, that's why my True question is : Is light really That great for the world ? For beastmen ? For humans ? I feel like light isn't any better than darkness, especially when you do the DRK quests and try to understand what Darkness is... And if You admit PLD represents light. (Which I think it does, given the final quest)

[Belhi]

I fully agree with you, Kallera, that's why my True question is : Is light really That great for the world ? For beastmen ? For humans ? I feel like light isn't any better than darkness, especially when you do the DRK quests and try to understand what Darkness is... And if You admit PLD represents light. (Which I think it does, given the final quest)

If we ignore the light/dark labels, I think the better question is if the Warrior of Light is that great for the world. The Warrior of Light opposes genocide. The Warrior of Light will even go out of his way to protect beastmen being abused by Garleans or people from the City States (this happens in the Beasttribe quests). The WoL does their best to minimise the suffering of others and end conflicts. The Warrior of Light cares.

The Ascians don't. THAT is the difference. We could be perfect clones of the Ascians but our actions make us different. The Ascians will lay waste to civilisations, trigger world shattering events and manipulate the vulnerable without care for their wellbeing. Regardless of what we are, we aren't the same as the Ascians.

As for Hydaelyn, regardless of her nature, we know Aether is Life force and Primals drain Aether from their surroundings. That's why they can eat souls. Primals suck the life out of the world around them. The very same effect happened during the War of the Magi when the Mages kept whipping out more and more large scale spells until the land suffered so much, nature itself triggered the 6th umbral error. Primals are bad news. Not because they are necessarily evil by nature, but because of the damage their very existence causes.

As for Thordan, I would suggest you review what he actually says in his last encounter. He talks about ruling as a God King of the world and enforcing order by his will. But even if he was great, the fact it would be a primal doing all this would undermine any good he did. Again, the war was mostly already won at that point and even if the Ascians were his biggest concern he hardly needed the power of a primal to fight them. Hell, the one time he does stand up to them, he waits for us to do most of the work. That Ascian was already on his knees by the time Thordan showed up.

As for Aymeric, there is several times his dialog seems to imply he actually cared about his father. He was upset with his father for perpetrating a lie that lead to such division and abuse within Ishgard's society. He was angered that his father would continue the same lie even in the wake of Nidhogg's defeat.

Again, I don't think Thordan was necessarily evil, nor do I think his goals did not have noble qualities. However how he went about it was wrong. Even good men can do evil if they will go to any length to achieve their goals, no matter how noble the goals.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

The ascians probably do, for the beastmen that oppose the humans. For them, summoning their primal, be given the chance and power to do so, that's a marvelous blessing. They can exist without the consent of humans that try to impose them their rules. But on the other hand, primal summoning is considered an act of agression and must be repressed, or else, the beastmen will impose their rules to humans. Truly, I don't think Ascians are evil, it just depends on which side you stands...

I'd also say that it's not the Warrior of Light that does all that (saving beastmen and stuff), but the character who's the warrior of light. We are the Warrior of light when we have to destroy darkness, when Hydaelyn tells us to do something... We are people when it's not the case. Of course, people still refer to us as the WoL, keep seeing us through that prism (not sure that can be said in english, so sorry if it sounds weird to you x) ), but we are in fact the character we see when you do the 30-50 DRK quest : a wanderer that's being put a massive pressure on. Yet, we still help goblins, it's true. Because our character is kind. But that doesn't mean the Warrior of Light is.

Not sure if I made my point here, so... feel free to tell me it what I said was unclear x)

What you say about Hydaelyn is true, but that's not my point. What I'm saying is that : Thordan wanted to hurt Hydaelyn (and Zodiark). He knew that becoming a primal would hurt her, and... well, that was his objective, so I don't see any contradiction here x)

On Thordan's last speech, in all honesty, I don't know how it's been translated in English, maybe it was more agressive, but in French, he did say he wanted to enforce order, and watch over the world... But what I understood there was that it would still be a mortal, or someone who knows what being mortal is, that would rule, a deity that can understand the peoples' struggles. And if that would have been possible, I think it would have been better that way than be ruled by Hydaelyn or Zodiark.

Aymeric... I didn't like that character from the beginning, and I really saw (and still see) him as an ambitious and pretentious man... To me, it never seemed like he cared about his father. He just focused on the surface of things (and never tried to change a thing before we were there... I guess heroes can wait...) and blamed his father for everything... He believed in the theocracy, no doubt, but he also wanted to be king/archbishop, I think... But that part is highly subjective for me, I don't like that character and his behaviour, so I may think poor of him even if he doesn't deserve so.

So we kinda agree on Thordan, in fact... He was some "nice guy" that wanted to save the world but ended up doing bad things for the greater good... I just think, if we could have talked to him, if he wasn't so afraid of us, maybe we could have been allies.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

It never would have worked even if we did talk to him. He wanted to use the power of primals to bring rule and order over all and he full well knew that the WOL would oppose him because of it. There would never be an understanding.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Between the WoL and Thordan, maybe. Between the character who's the WoL and Thordan, there could have been. And... well, Shiva was a primal. She thought for Hydaelyn, she transformed two times while we were with her, and I haven't seen anybody complain about it... There's probably more to primals than just "Primals hurt Hydaelyn".