"Who...what are you?"

[MilesSaintboroguh]

I think Thordon only thought about ending the war and then using his power and influence to crush other forms of oppression by using oppression himself.

[Kallera]

From my own rp perspective, while i consider Kallera a warrior of light, it is not the whole of her being, she had a life, even one as an adventurer(1.0) before it, even as it connects her to the legends at the end of the 7th umbral era.

Non RP wise:
There will come a time where no amount of aetherial technobabble will deliver us scot free. Thordan was willing to give up his very being and become a monster to ensure the victory and properity of his people. Are we willing to face that choice ourselves? Did we make that choice already by destroying him? What the main character is becoming seems to be a major question in heavensward even after, and because of, our feats and destroyed enemies...
Regardless of being primal or not, we (And counltess others in Eorzea) kill the supernatual for the crime of existing on Hydelyn. If we ourselves are no longer among mortal men and women then what are we, and how long before we outlive our usefulness?

RP wise:
When the rage subsided, and the battles ended, the last question of Thordan VII remained, and what should have been a rousing victory seemed like a misplayed last note only she could hear. For there wasn't a soul in Eorzea that didn't know her now, not a one who couldn't answer that question...except herself.

[Atoli]

For there wasn't a soul in Eorzea that didn't know her now [...]

...maybe someone in Ala Mhigo hasn't heard yet

[Kallera]

...maybe someone in Ala Mhigo hasn't heard yet

Oh goody!

[Kallera]

Yes Thordan and the Ascians were playing off of each other,due to the dragon war, and with the war over said act would have to be dealt with.

At any rate, what was once an endless creed of badassery is now also thought provoking of our existence among others, with fan theories questioning just how human were are, or if we are perhaps losing ourselves to our purpose as Eorzea's and hydelyn's champion, becoming a "weapon of light".

The need to paint Thordan as evil, or to simplify the matter to black and white, makes it easier to swallow, "we had no choice" and well, we probably didn't. But intention doesn't seem to be much of a defense when becoming superhuman in Eorzea.

Which bring us back to why the question is an important one when applied to us.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

I fully agree with you, Kallera, that's why my True question is : Is light really That great for the world ? For beastmen ? For humans ? I feel like light isn't any better than darkness, especially when you do the DRK quests and try to understand what Darkness is... And if You admit PLD represents light. (Which I think it does, given the final quest)

[Belhi]

I fully agree with you, Kallera, that's why my True question is : Is light really That great for the world ? For beastmen ? For humans ? I feel like light isn't any better than darkness, especially when you do the DRK quests and try to understand what Darkness is... And if You admit PLD represents light. (Which I think it does, given the final quest)

If we ignore the light/dark labels, I think the better question is if the Warrior of Light is that great for the world. The Warrior of Light opposes genocide. The Warrior of Light will even go out of his way to protect beastmen being abused by Garleans or people from the City States (this happens in the Beasttribe quests). The WoL does their best to minimise the suffering of others and end conflicts. The Warrior of Light cares.

The Ascians don't. THAT is the difference. We could be perfect clones of the Ascians but our actions make us different. The Ascians will lay waste to civilisations, trigger world shattering events and manipulate the vulnerable without care for their wellbeing. Regardless of what we are, we aren't the same as the Ascians.

As for Hydaelyn, regardless of her nature, we know Aether is Life force and Primals drain Aether from their surroundings. That's why they can eat souls. Primals suck the life out of the world around them. The very same effect happened during the War of the Magi when the Mages kept whipping out more and more large scale spells until the land suffered so much, nature itself triggered the 6th umbral error. Primals are bad news. Not because they are necessarily evil by nature, but because of the damage their very existence causes.

As for Thordan, I would suggest you review what he actually says in his last encounter. He talks about ruling as a God King of the world and enforcing order by his will. But even if he was great, the fact it would be a primal doing all this would undermine any good he did. Again, the war was mostly already won at that point and even if the Ascians were his biggest concern he hardly needed the power of a primal to fight them. Hell, the one time he does stand up to them, he waits for us to do most of the work. That Ascian was already on his knees by the time Thordan showed up.

As for Aymeric, there is several times his dialog seems to imply he actually cared about his father. He was upset with his father for perpetrating a lie that lead to such division and abuse within Ishgard's society. He was angered that his father would continue the same lie even in the wake of Nidhogg's defeat.

Again, I don't think Thordan was necessarily evil, nor do I think his goals did not have noble qualities. However how he went about it was wrong. Even good men can do evil if they will go to any length to achieve their goals, no matter how noble the goals.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

The ascians probably do, for the beastmen that oppose the humans. For them, summoning their primal, be given the chance and power to do so, that's a marvelous blessing. They can exist without the consent of humans that try to impose them their rules. But on the other hand, primal summoning is considered an act of agression and must be repressed, or else, the beastmen will impose their rules to humans. Truly, I don't think Ascians are evil, it just depends on which side you stands...

I'd also say that it's not the Warrior of Light that does all that (saving beastmen and stuff), but the character who's the warrior of light. We are the Warrior of light when we have to destroy darkness, when Hydaelyn tells us to do something... We are people when it's not the case. Of course, people still refer to us as the WoL, keep seeing us through that prism (not sure that can be said in english, so sorry if it sounds weird to you x) ), but we are in fact the character we see when you do the 30-50 DRK quest : a wanderer that's being put a massive pressure on. Yet, we still help goblins, it's true. Because our character is kind. But that doesn't mean the Warrior of Light is.

Not sure if I made my point here, so... feel free to tell me it what I said was unclear x)

What you say about Hydaelyn is true, but that's not my point. What I'm saying is that : Thordan wanted to hurt Hydaelyn (and Zodiark). He knew that becoming a primal would hurt her, and... well, that was his objective, so I don't see any contradiction here x)

On Thordan's last speech, in all honesty, I don't know how it's been translated in English, maybe it was more agressive, but in French, he did say he wanted to enforce order, and watch over the world... But what I understood there was that it would still be a mortal, or someone who knows what being mortal is, that would rule, a deity that can understand the peoples' struggles. And if that would have been possible, I think it would have been better that way than be ruled by Hydaelyn or Zodiark.

Aymeric... I didn't like that character from the beginning, and I really saw (and still see) him as an ambitious and pretentious man... To me, it never seemed like he cared about his father. He just focused on the surface of things (and never tried to change a thing before we were there... I guess heroes can wait...) and blamed his father for everything... He believed in the theocracy, no doubt, but he also wanted to be king/archbishop, I think... But that part is highly subjective for me, I don't like that character and his behaviour, so I may think poor of him even if he doesn't deserve so.

So we kinda agree on Thordan, in fact... He was some "nice guy" that wanted to save the world but ended up doing bad things for the greater good... I just think, if we could have talked to him, if he wasn't so afraid of us, maybe we could have been allies.

[Morningstar1337]

Of course, people still refer to us as the WoL, keep seeing us through that prism (not sure that can be said in english, so sorry if it sounds weird to you x)

It can, but I think "lens" is the term you were looking for

In any case, it seems that your devil's advocacy seems to keep in mind the shades of grey in XII's conflict (Gods being evils, shades of grey all around), the thing is Despite that and certain mobs designs coming from XII the two settings are different, maybe Yoshida will take the story into a simialr direction to XII or he may keep things like in the early titles, with the heroes being ambiguously heroic in service to the (well A) crystal. (Come to think of it, didn;t someone mentioned that Yoshi loved A Song of Ice and Fire?)

I should also mention that the primals and beastmen seem to think that the Characters had became tempered by Hydaelyn, and as Final Coil shows, being a primal would not protect you from tempering. With that in mind

I'm not gonna take sides in your debates so I'll just leave by reminding you that more often or not History is Written by the Winners, a fact that should had been apparent since the Aery

[MilesSaintboroguh]

It never would have worked even if we did talk to him. He wanted to use the power of primals to bring rule and order over all and he full well knew that the WOL would oppose him because of it. There would never be an understanding.