"Who...what are you?"

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

I don't really have the time to answer properly, so I'll be concise, but I'm fully open to arguing !

On Thordan : Yes, he was misguided, but well... The WoL didn't try to discuss with him once he knew the truth, he just went and fight, like Thordan himself... And the only solution we viewed to that problem was killing him. So he may have been an extremist, but we were as well... Additionnally, Thordan was in direct contact with Ascians all along but wasn't corrupted, meanwhile Thancred was possessed really easily... So Thordan's will and heart were most pure than Thancred's, than a Scion's and that's not nothing...

On Niddhog : Yes, Niddhog was a really bad guy. That's why Thordan wanted to kill him. Because the true villain was Niddhog (and his crew). So yeah, of course Thordan wanted power, I never said he didn't... I said he didn't want the power for himself, but to protect Ishgard.

On the wars : As far as we know, Thordan was the strongest primal (Bahamut may be stronger, we Just don't really know... In terms of figures, Thordan was more powerful than proto-Bahamut, but Bahamut himself...) so he may have wiped the agressive dragons. The others being too tired to fight back, it would have solved the problem. And the garleans would have been wiped as well, for all we know... Short term solution ? I don't think so. It would have been a long term solution for Ishgard, and Ishgard alone.

On the alliance : Ishgard will mostly not benefit from the alliance. They are stronger than the other city states, so they will help more than they'll be helped, lose men and resources in the process, and end up weaker. Alliances are great, but not for everyone. That's egoism if you want, but Ishgard was better off alone. And yeah, Aymeric wanted to be part of the Alliance since 2.55, that doesn't mean Aymeric was right. And Aymeric had little to no pretention to do so, he was a general, not a king...

On Ascians : Yeah, Ascians have been here for centuries and centuries and we've been here for two years maximum. That doesn't mean we're not the same, Just That we're younger. Still, we have an amount of power impossible for a human and we have Much more impact on the world than humans. We are closer to Ascians than to humans...

On beasttribes : They have been here for centuries and summoned primals for centuries, yet... Well, we weren't there. And the city states survived... They didn't need the WoL. True, primals are stronger than before... When we arrive. We know the Ascians are the origin of That strengthening, but people don't, and You can't expect them to believe you when you say That you're the Nice guy... Maybe you are the one Who gives them strength ?
And yeah, we helped the peace by doing beast tribe quests... After killing the beastmen That didn't agree with us. Look at kobolds. They were a call nation That simply wanted to mine and be alone, the Maelstrom broke their agreement and invaded them, so they summoned Titan, the Maelstrom asked you to kill Titan... So you kill Titan and many kobolds. Because they opposed the ones Who broke the agreement, Who betrayed them. That's an example, there are others saying the opposite, but you can't deny That.

And on democracy : A softer and slower decision process is better when you're at peace, but Ishgard was and is at war. A tyrant is often more useful in these times, because his decisions are quick and more "logical", more capable of achieving victory...

Finally, you are truly the ones That take the argument too seriously x) I'm talking from Thordan's Point of View, to try to understand what he meant. There's no truth, there's only interpretation. What's best from the WoL's point of view was wordt from Thordan's and vice-versa. I try to answer the original question of the thread, that's all x)

[Morningstar1337]

On Thordan : Yes, he was misguided, but well... The WoL didn't try to discuss with him once he knew the truth, he just went and fight, like Thordan himself... And the only solution we viewed to that problem was killing him. So he may have been an extremist, but we were as well...

I feel I should point out that Aymneric offered (nay went) to ask Throdian about this after we killed the Malice Striker, Nidhogg. Twere that not the case, we probably would had confronted him before going after Sky Moby Dick, but since the Vault came before that, and with it the revilation that he and the Twelve knights became primals, it might not had changed anything (and we prolly had to break through the Vault anyway to confront Throdian), unless you can think of a way for Primals to exist without bleeding Hydealyn dry of Aether (INB4 claims of the WoL being indoctrinated/tempered)

I try to answer the original question of the thread, that's all

Also the reason i made this thread was to ask how the ending affected the player's character from a RP standpoint.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Also the reason i made this thread was to ask how the ending affected the player's character from a RP standpoint.

It's too....well, difficult to say considering how everyone RPs their characters in so many ways. I think some people don't even consider their character a WOL for RP purposes and find some other reason on how their person gets power.


As for arguing from "Thordon's view", we don't even know what he thinks about making an alliance or what he thinks of the beastmen issues, amongst other things. All he cares about is stuff involving dragons and protecting the secret behind the war so that the people don't turn against him.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Well, I really don't know how Ellice reacted as I don't identify at all to the WoL... But I think she would have stopped working for Hydaelyn almost instantly. Ellice is a really sensible character, and should she understand That she hurt somebody, or let her feelings and reasoning destroy another person's life, not even knowing if what she did was truly right... Because that's how I felt when I killed Thordan, I wasn't sure we did something good... And that's why I tried so much to understand Thordan.

And on Hydaelyn bleeding for primals... Well, yes. But then again, Thordan doesn't give a damn about Hydaelyn and Zodiark, he wants to protect Ishgard.

Aymeric also doesn't sound to me as a calm guy... He was angry at Thordan for personal reasons and Thordan was angry at him for personal reasons... It was stupid to let him go there alone.

[Belhi]

Well, I really don't know how Ellice reacted as I don't identify at all to the WoL... But I think she would have stopped working for Hydaelyn almost instantly. Ellice is a really sensible character, and should she understand That she hurt somebody, or let her feelings and reasoning destroy another person's life, not even knowing if what she did was truly right... Because that's how I felt when I killed Thordan, I wasn't sure we did something good... And that's why I tried so much to understand Thordan.

And on Hydaelyn bleeding for primals... Well, yes. But then again, Thordan doesn't give a damn about Hydaelyn and Zodiark, he wants to protect Ishgard.

Aymeric also doesn't sound to me as a calm guy... He was angry at Thordan for personal reasons and Thordan was angry at him for personal reasons... It was stupid to let him go there alone.

Hydaelyn isn't just a floaty crystal. It is all made one. An embodiment of the life of the world. Simply put, Primals suck the world of its very life force. This is why Alexander would have made the Hinterlands barren within months and why we kill Primals. Their very existence kills the world around them slowly and the stronger they are the more they consume.

Regardless of Thordan's intentions, which I felt were short sighted, his method would have come at a terrible price. This is assuming he just wiped out the Garleans and the dragons (and frankly not all dragons deserve to be killed off any more than the Ishgardians do). Add to that, his dialog in the fight seemed to imply he didn't plan to just stop with Ishgard but 'bring order to the world' as a new god king.

Aymeric went along cause he hoped he could make his father see reason and bring change to Ishgard rather than enforcing a lie. The very basis for Ishgard's social structure, which in turn has lead to serious social equality and abuses of lower classes, was a lie. He was, quite rightly, convinced that with Nidhogg gone it was only a matter of time before the lower classes began to get restless of the oppression of the high houses.

Thordan was in a position of authority with the influence to transition Ishgard into a less socially imbalanced society and therefore avoid potential civil unrest. Lets be clear. We had already removed Nidhogg when Thordan left. He didn't need the power of a primal to defeat that dragon anymore. The Horde had had its head cut off.

[Morningstar1337]

which in turn has lead to serious social equality and abuses of lower classes...

Typos create contradictions and mutually exclusive attributes

[Kallera]

Thordan was in a position of authority with the influence to transition Ishgard into a less socially imbalanced society and therefore avoid potential civil unrest. Lets be clear. We had already removed Nidhogg when Thordan left. He didn't need the power of a primal to defeat that dragon anymore. The Horde had had its head cut off.

Thordan needed the power in order to best the Ascians, beings we cannot be relied upon to kill without considerable set up and expensive rocks. It was a surprise that Urianger found even a second for us to take with us to azis lla.

Even with Nidhoog dead, the lands of dravania is rife with proof of letting Ascian meddling go out of hand. And Thordan clearly had a deal with these beings. He wanted(and, in his view, needed) to put one over on them or Ishgard's society would never be safe.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Even with Nidhoog dead, the lands of dravania is rife with proof of letting Ascian meddling go out of hand. And Thordan clearly had a deal with these beings. He wanted(and, in his view, needed) to put one over on them or Ishgard's society would never be safe.

I'm not sure I understand, There... As it appears to me, Thordan never allied with the Ascians, both sides were just playing fools of each other... Thordan thought the Ascians would fall in his trap, and the Ascians thought Thordan would fall in their trap. And Dravania and the Ascians have nothing to do with one another, we only know that Ascians helped summoning Bahamut (And Alexander, probably, although I'm not sure it is said, but I can be wrong).

And yes, I know what Hydaelyn is supposed to be the source of all life... But that's what we're told, and we're not necessarily told the truth... Hydaelyn herself and Minfillia told us so, Midgardsormr seems to be Hydaelyn's vassal, but that doesn't mean Hydaelyn is good while Zodiark is bad. We only know that Primals bleed Hydaelyn dry, enabling Zodiark to return. Thordan wanted to become a new god, maybe, but so he could take care of Zodiark and Hydaelyn, ensuring that no deity would ever intercede in the mortals' life anymore. Honestly... That's not so bad.

And for the twelve's sake, stop assuming things over Thordan, you don't have more proofs that he was going to be a tyrant than I do to prove he was going to be great. He's dead. Maybe he would have been a bad ruler and we would have killed him, maybe he would have been a precious ally, once we discussed with him. Maybe he was enforcing Ishgard's old ways up till the end of the war, because it was needed for him to gather enough power to win it, and would have let Aymeric rule, or any other guy that was good enough for the job. Maybe he was going to rule the theocracy as he always did, being a bad guy. The thing is, we won't ever know.

Finally, Aymeric didn't go to Thordan to reason him, he went to demand that Thordan ceases his actions, and probably take a personnal revenge for being a bastard son. Thordan thought about this plan for decades, and was convinced it was for the greater good, why would he listen to a capricious child that only sees a part of the bigger truth ? Try to walk in his shoes : he had absolutely no reason to listen to Aymeric, nor could he explain Aymeric his plan, since the ascians were probably there.

I still don't get why you all need... baddies. That's a very manichean way to see the lore, I think... Yeah, Thordan was an enemy, but he wasn't a bad guy. Like most FF villains, to be honest.

It was a surprise that Urianger found even a second for us to take with us to azis lla.

A gift from Elidibus, probably...

[Atoli]

About Thordan: I completely disagree with your view on him. He was clinging to power while his people were suffering and dying left and right. Sure, from his point of view it was necessary for the greater good (stability of the state by keeping everyone from finding out the truth), but that doesn't make him GOOD. Notice that in fiction - and real life, for that matter - "evil" people rarely think of what they are doing as evil. They do it because they either think wholeheartedly that it's a good thing OR at most aknowledge it as necessary evil to reach the greater good. So no, just because he thought he was doing something good doesn't make him not evil.
Also, he was just delaying the inevitable. The revolution started from within with Ysayle's people and Hilda's followers, BECAUSE Thordan left such a huge portion of his people suffering and dying. The WoL only helped speed the process up a bit.

Having said all that...I personally have to say I agree with him though xD
It's heavily implied that our sole motive (except for getting rid of all primals) in the end was to let the truth be known as an end in itsself, not to reach a certain goal. I agree with Thordan that that's just stupid. IF he properly tried to lead his people out of the war and didn't use a made-up concept of nobles being better and special to opress everyone, I would have been 100% on his side. But you know, in that case no revolution would have happened in the first place, everyone would have been too happy for the Ascians to properly sway anyone and he would never have any reason to become a Primal to begin with, so there would be no conflict with the WoL either.

[Frederick22]

what would be his excuse anyway? That Halone gave him god powers? Was he even thinking above Halone or still acting on her name, despite everything?