gender equality and social disorder

[JeniLinsky]

Where have you gone, Maxwell Q. Klinger? Your nation turns its lonely eyes to you.

[Dualgunner]

Why don't YOU show me evidence, that it isn't, go ahead,

Lemme stop you there. The positive claim was "the majority of players don't want to see x," and the one who asserted it was you. Therefore, it's on you to prove your claim, not your opponent to disprove it. Burden of Proof is on you.

[Serilda]

Why don't YOU show me evidence, that it isn't, go ahead, Take a vote on players that wouldn't mind seeing this vs those who don't and watch the results. There is a reason it's not in the game, and no amount of the minority of you crying and wishing it was here will get it in. but the votes i will wait for you to gather will show you that.

Nobody needs to prove this to you; you were the one who first claimed to speak for the majority so the burden of proof is firmly on your shoulders now that you have been called out on it. You can't sweep in, make a ridiculous claim then demand that anyone who disagrees find some way to disprove your made-up 'fact'.

I can, however, provide some circumstantial evidence which I believe shows that there is merit in us continuing to push for equality.

The number of views on the two topics currently circulating about male outfits show enormous interest from the forum community exists. Yet the number of negative remarks or sustained arguments against the simple request the OP has made is small; in fact, all of the arguments against it have been carefully disproven over the course of the thread.

This is obviously an issue the community is interested in and it's easy to see why; if you were to ask the average player with a male character whether they wanted to have the same number of items as those with female characters or less you would struggle to find many who voluntarily opted for less. Especially since they don't get any other benefits in return for the sacrifice.

The game's staff have proven time and time again that reasonable feedback is important to them, and this certainly seems to qualify. Players wanted male Miqo'te and female Roegadyn; they got their wishes and the game is a richer place for it. Players wanted same sex marriage so they could enjoy more content without compromising their character customisation choices, they got it and again, nobody has suffered as a result of this option being available to others.

If anyone reading this truly feels so disturbed by the very sight of someone with a physically masculine body wearing a dress to the point that they feel nauseous, I would strongly suggest that they seek some kind of professional help. Fashion should not have that kind of effect on people and it will greatly hinder aspects of their daily life. They should certainly avoid playing a game like FFXIV because - comedy or not - a scene of that type already exists in the game. Incidentally if you can find some kind of mass-quit exodus of the majority of players which took place as a direct result of revulsion caused by that scene, it would probably support your point. I will wait for you to gather that evidence.

Most people in this very thread support the thread's actual request, that male characters should have the same number of equippables as females. Even you support it; you said so yourself. So what is accomplished by ranting about how repulsive this imaginary majority of FFXIV players finds others and making people feel bad about themselves for no reason? It's unkind, untrue and unhelpful. Please reconsider your approach.

[Blood-Aki]

Lemme stop you there. The positive claim was "the majority of players don't want to see x," and the one who asserted it was you. Therefore, it's on you to prove your claim, not your opponent to disprove it. Burden of Proof is on you.

Wrong, as if majority of players want something, it's usually considerd, and while i see topics begging for the most silly things, topics about wanting cross dressing is certainly not something i see often on these forums, or anywhere for that matter.

My offer stands. But not like it matters, as i said this won't happen. But you can freely prove that wrong as well.

seri's post before this was to dumb to consider debating over, so i'll let him have his moment on that. Good luck with the wishing.

[WinterLuna]

@Blood, you tell me not to put words into others mouths yet your entire statement of 'the majority of the playerbase don't want to see men in dresses' is speaking for thousands of people. Don't assume. Speak for yourself only instead of pushing your (rather ridiculous) opinions on others.

Oh, and this topic has been discussed and supported way more times than you'd have liked.

[BunnyChain]

(Fourthly, there are plenty of female characters running around in ridiculous and/or potentially nausea-inducing outfits, but that issue is never considered equally important, it seems.)

The problem with people holding that sentiment is that they focus so hard on that specific thing that they completely ignore the other half of this argument/request -- female avatars get more outfits than male avatars. And to many of us, it seems it would take less time/effort to adjust the current female-only (without male-only equivalent) and make them unisex (keeping the original appearance when worn by a female character, using the adjusted appearance when worn by a male character, similar to some other unisex pieces), than it would to create a new outfit from scratch AND resist the temptation to make that new design unisex.

(Ridiculous indeed, I don't know what some people are thinking when they put their outfits together... unless that was their actual intent.)

Many points were made already but I say (it again), if they can make it fit Lalafells, they can make it fit anyone!

fantasy or not, some things can make you cringe, irl or not. Thankfully, this is not something I see SE doing anytime soon, so no need for people who vomit over that stuff to worry about it.

What is considerd "nausea" inducing is subjective. This is a moot point. Some people might actually like the smell of rotting garbage, while it makes others sick to the core.

----

It's the fact Majority of the playerbase does not want to see males in dresses[...]

Why don't YOU show me evidence, that it isn't, go ahead, Take a vote on players that wouldn't mind seeing this vs those who don't and watch the results.

----

You say social disorder, I say mental illness. Your move.

Funny how the thread's title is (after all) actually quite fitting.

[Kalsam]

-snip-

*sighs* I don't need to. Allow me to point out how you misread my post.
I asked you to stop using a word, without the evidence to support it. I did NOT say you were necessarily wrong.
I then said the majority of people posting in this thread had agreed with the OP. Again, NOT saying that the majority of people in the game did.

[Dualgunner]

Wrong,

Actually, factually correct. The positive claim is yours, which means you need to do the work and prove the claim.

as if majority of players want something, it's usually considerd,

PS4 Parsers and first party parsers would like to disagree with you.

and while i see topics begging for the most silly things, topics about wanting cross dressing is certainly not something i see often on these forums, or anywhere for that matter.

I apologize, I fail to see where it's anybody's problem that you don't want things. Firstly, this topic isn't about people wanting cross-dressing, if you would care to look. It may have started with an awkward name but the OP has time and time again stated that this was not the purpose of the thread; what people want is a more equivalent amount of options for both men and women, and for silly things like hats not to be genderlocked.

And if you don't want people crossdressing I'm sorry, find a different game. I play a female who is crossdressing as the 10th Doctor. I see men running around in pink speedo gear, with flowery hats and hilarious names, so crossdressing is already in the game.

[Cidel]

Okay, before this thread spirals even deeper into feminism, identity, fresh-off-of-wikipedia's-list-of-fallacies arguments, and literalist "he said, she said" into a potential locked thread-

Anyone able to potentially direct me to a question in the Questions for the Item Team Lead thread (this would be the time to ask it) where someone brought up why they have been slacking on making male-only equipment and dishing out unisex/female-only gear like there's no tomorrow?

If there isn't, are there any volunteers to ask it? I will be slapping on a giant "like" to any questions on the matter.

Thanks in advance.

[Reinha]

There should be an equal amount of clothes for both genders. I was pretty shocked to learn that that's not the case already tbh. Be it unisex (personally not a fan), clothes that change to fit the wearer or simply adding an equal amount of gender locked outfits.

On the sub-topic of cross dressing though. I've usually taken the stance that it would be a welcome addition to the game, both for comedy value and for the huge amount of options it would open up. This time I took a step back and thought of the impact it would have on the player base as a whole and not just the people who share my values.

All existing players bought the game in it's current form where skimpy clothing exists but same sex marriage isn't called marriage and cross dressing isn't allowed. This may not be an issue of morals, religion or severe nausea for you, but there are people in the world, and in this very game, who would get very upset at the company if player cross dressing was made possible. It's a really sensitive subject in some parts of the world, and a change like this could have an impact on age ratings or even availability. I only have to cross the border to be in a place where any material portraying gay relationships in a positive manner is not allowed to be distributed among minors. Would you want your fc member to have to stop playing because of a legal issue? On the flipside, would you enjoy the game as much if it suddenly took a very seemingly radical stance on a real life religion/tradition? I know I would think twice about renewing my sub if The Twelve were replaced by some real life religion I don't share and I bumped into the symbols and teachings anywhere I went in game. Or if nazi symbols were imprinted on all new glamour in a patch.

Who's in the majority or minority doesn't really matter. As much as I disagree with any world view opposing freedom of expression, I still recognize that people with those views have the right to their opinion and that they have been loyal customers too. In order to keep this game going SE's primary concern should be, and luckily has always been, to maintain it's existing customers. Not upsetting a portion of the players on purpose seems like a pretty good way to honor that principle. Getting an equal amount of glamour options for both character genders is something they should certainly have a look at, but I'm sure it can be done in a way which doesn't completely alienate a part of the community.

Anyway, I'm out. Carry on, and here's some for everyone