gender equality and social disorder

[RubyCirha]

Fair enough, the thread title alone was basically gasoline waiting for a fire.

yea i thought about that after i made the thread not my best choice of words but any way no all im realy asking for is for them to make the same outfit for both male and female but with slight alterations like the Madervile set as 1 example and lets get this thread back on track shale we

[WinterLuna]

I think some people here are forgetting maybe males want to wear skirts or dresses purely because they like the aesthetics of them.. Not just because they want to cross dress.

There's a huge difference between 'I want to cross dress for the sake of cross dressing on a fantasy game' and 'I want to wear a skirt because I genuinely like the look of it but unfortunately it's only locked to females.'

Not everyone is trying to challenge gender/equality/social acceptance. Some people just like the look of the female gear and want to be able to use it.

[SchalaZeal]

I think some people here are forgetting maybe males want to wear skirts or dresses purely because they like the aesthetics of them.. Not just because they want to cross dress.

There's a huge difference between 'I want to cross dress for the sake of cross dressing on a fantasy game' and 'I want to wear a skirt because I genuinely like the look of it but unfortunately it's only locked to females.'

Not everyone is trying to challenge gender/equality/social acceptance. Some people just like the look of the female gear and want to be able to use it.

Yeah I personally like certain skirt types aesthetically, though I didn't dare wear any pre-transition. A fantasy setting in a game sounds a lot safer though.

[WinterLuna]

Yeah I personally like certain skirt types aesthetically, though I didn't dare wear any pre-transition. A fantasy setting in a game sounds a lot safer though.

Yeah, I mean in a way the gender aspect isn't even relevant, it really comes down to what people like to wear and if that's skirts or dresses then so be it. I think SE, if not allow cross dressing, to at least make male counterparts for every female outfit. No matter what people's opinions, they can't argue that it's unfair at the moment.

[Recaldy]

Most of the new armor are pretty much dresses with the long skirts anyway. <_<+

[Roegadyn_Bear]

Yeah, I mean in a way the gender aspect isn't even relevant, it really comes down to what people like to wear and if that's skirts or dresses then so be it. I think SE, if not allow cross dressing, to at least make male counterparts for every female outfit. No matter what people's opinions, they can't argue that it's unfair at the moment.

That's pretty much their only option. If they're truly adamant about preventing males from wearing dresses, then they'll need to make male specific gear to compensate for the fact they made way more female specific gear.

If were to allow males to wear female specific armor, it would have to be tailored in a way where it looks like it's the same armor while fitting appropriately on the male body, otherwise you get...

[RubyCirha]

That's pretty much their only option. If they're truly adamant about preventing males from wearing dresses, then they'll need to make male specific gear to compensate for the fact they made way more female specific gear.

If were to allow males to wear female specific armor, it would have to be tailored in a way where it looks like it's the same armor while fitting appropriately on the male body, otherwise you get...

i would be ok with this this is ruby aprooved lol

[Noxifer]

Responses to Schala behind HideButton:

Your wikipedia quotes are not about women being owned but about women owning property. For the record, most people are not (and were not) landowners, although a lot of people aspire to being owner rather than renter. It was even more rare in the past when the rich-poor difference was even more blatant than today (it's slowly getting worse but it was good right after WW2).

Well, for one, you can't specify 'apart from slavery' and then expect quotes regarding that. But being legally hindered from leaving your spouse, being hindered from being seen as anything but an extension of your spouse, owning nothing (or being legally required to have your spouse deal with anything regarding what you own)... Is that so much different?
And no, most people weren't landowners, but the law didn't particularly hinder a man who had the means to buy property. The law did hinder women both from having said means (unable to earn an income or disposing of said income) and from owning property.

I could say children are property and that property it owned by a family, and that beatings are not legal. Also that female-on-male beatings have rarely been prosecuted as outright crimes the way the reverse was. Some places even further humiliate the victimized man rather than help him.

...Are you speaking historically or current times?

Can't say I was treated more seriously for being a trans woman than a trans man would have been. And I don't see why they would see it more seriously.

Well, maybe I expressed myself poorly with 'taken seriously', but what I meant was that due to male clothing being seen as pretty normal wear for a woman, FTM are a lot more invisible. This does sometimes include the 'passing' phase being questioned by examiners, because they're just dressing like any other young woman might. And sure, the same goes for those MTF who still prefer trousers to skirts, but they do have another option available.
(Of course, the examiner I've heard the most about was very Freudian, and everything seemed to be about penis envy with him... so that might colour my opinion a bit.)

Robes and dresses are not that impractical. Long nails (at least enough to hinder manual work), make-up, a special hairdo, or a very large hat. Now that's impractical. I can do pretty much everything I already do, wearing a dress. I just tend to only some of the time. If I owned more skirts to my liking, I might wear more. Not fond of pencil skirts. I think the stuff I named that is impractical are pretty optional for most, and have been before. Even when women (and men) had to be covered, they didn't need a whole fruit basket on their head.

A friend of mine would disagree with the long nails business ^^; He finds it a lot more hindering when he cuts them short. And dresses/skirts can hinder some types of work, which AFAIK was how women got around that issue back during WWII when they had to take over much of the industry work while the men were off in the war (it's a while since I saw any documentary stuff on that period, however, and it's too late for me to go into research mode right now, so my memory may be flawed).

Mostly the whole "she must be lesbian", or inference of too-masculine. Similar to a guy in dancing, ballet jazz or figure skating being seem as gay or effeminate. This is especially true of kids and teens, less of adults.

I can't say I've ever heard many such things, but I'll admit that I don't have the best POV for that; one tends to be a lot more blind to things that doesn't affect oneself or someone close.

Being assumed independent is nice when you are, not when you're not. Unfortunately its not a toggle. So the victims would probably prefer help to dignity they're never gonna benefit from. I'd rather get helped than tough love. I was bullied a lot as a kid, and I learned from the bullying to hide my emotions. Because the emotions triggered more bullying.

Same. Unfortunately, I also learned to not ask adults for help, because their 'help' consisted of talking to the bullies and making them promise to stop... and trusted them every time they did promise.

Seen girls being mocked for blue? Then its not a boy color. It has to be exclusive or its neutral.

It is considered the boy colour, and has been pretty much since WWII, though it didn't kick in that hard until the 80's or so (depending on where you live, of course). Over here, during the 70's, it was generally brown and orange for boys -- my mum has always disliked pink, so she dressed my sister in whatever wasn't pink, thus venturing into 'boy colour' areas. The number of times she was told she couldn't dress a girl like that...

But just like with trousers, it's become more and more acceptable for girls to wear 'boy colours', much due to all those 'girl power' campaigns. And again, development in the other direction is going a lot more slowly. But it is at least going forward, which is a good thing.

Good lord this thread derailed so hard.

I know, and I'm really sorry D:

I think some people here are forgetting maybe males want to wear skirts or dresses purely because they like the aesthetics of them.. Not just because they want to cross dress.

There's a huge difference between 'I want to cross dress for the sake of cross dressing on a fantasy game' and 'I want to wear a skirt because I genuinely like the look of it but unfortunately it's only locked to females.'

Not everyone is trying to challenge gender/equality/social acceptance. Some people just like the look of the female gear and want to be able to use it.

That's very much so ^^; But since someone invariably starts up the whole "but it's wrong for guys to wear dresses" whenever the subject of glamour inequality is brought up, it's... kind of hard to not reply "why should it be?"

[WinterLuna]

I'm totally with you Noxifer, my point was against those who try to bring up that argument I mean, some people just assume males are trying to cross dress when they wear dresses or skirts instead of just accepting that they might like the look of it. Neither is wrong. People can wear whatever they want, male or female.

[SchalaZeal]

Answer to Noxifer in HB, if I did it right.

Well, maybe I expressed myself poorly with 'taken seriously', but what I meant was that due to male clothing being seen as pretty normal wear for a woman, FTM are a lot more invisible. This does sometimes include the 'passing' phase being questioned by examiners, because they're just dressing like any other young woman might. And sure, the same goes for those MTF who still prefer trousers to skirts, but they do have another option available.
(Of course, the examiner I've heard the most about was very Freudian, and everything seemed to be about penis envy with him... so that might colour my opinion a bit.)

The procedure seems to have been written to protect shrinks (and possibly surgeons) from being sued, rather than the well-being of people, or considering real people.

I didn't show to the first psychiatrist wearing a skirt, and I didn't even own one at the time. I probably wouldn't have done it either, not unless it was my last recourse. I'm androgynous, both in body and interests and style. I'm not going to pretend I'm a lot more girly than I actually am to get approved for something. I did a lot of soul searching and internet searching before I even decided to talk to someone it mattered to about it. That was over a year.

Once I decided to do something, well, I wanted results. So I wanted HRT by every means possible, and found one without diagnosis. Got the diagnosis after. No surgery, don't really need and not satisfying enough results, plus I'd forget aftercare. No one wanted to see how "convincing" or stereotypical I would be as a girl. Or how feminine I was, or how heterosexual I was or anything like that. The Benjamin SOC are a relic themselves, but what the shrinks did before that is a fossil, if you find one like that, run for the hills, there's more enlightened people. And I still have a poor opinion of the shrinks I did meet.

...Are you speaking historically or current times?

Historically. There was one vote per family unit and one 'property' per family unit because this is how the world worked back then, just family units rather than individuals. It probably was unfair that management fell uniquely in the hands of men, but it wasn't some ploy to make women helpless, they expected couples to be partners, not hostages and kidnappers.

A friend of mine would disagree with the long nails business ^^; He finds it a lot more hindering when he cuts them short.

The change from long to short also hinders me when I type. For a day or two it feels very awkward because I'm used to my long nails (it's more lazyness than choice, but I embraced it anyway - I just stopped biting my nails and they kept growing). If I worked manual labor, they probably would break more often and force me to not keep them as long.

This one isn't an answer to a quote. Have you remarked how much % of kids fit the pattern of boy = short hair (like army short) and girl = long hair? It's like nearly 100%, and those are kids who can speak their mind and tell their parents (you could excuse a 3 years old from not being able to voice their opinion, but I'm talking 5-12 range). Why are the parents so damn conformist through their kids? It's like if the adult woman section of clothing was just as pink as the toddler/little girl section (and it's about half or more pink).

Imagine the Healer's Culottes design on a male. It's a micro skirt (and until you get the lv 50 AF Robe, you're very skimpy). In the name of equality, I wouldn't mind that one bit.

I don't tend to glamour skimpy stuff much, but the coliseum shawl just fell on my lv 45 WHM.