gender equality and social disorder

[SchalaZeal]

No, feminine women aren't seen as something negative. But since women have traditionally been named "the weaker sex" -- and we as a species are still in the process of getting rid of that label -- femininity is seen as weaker than masculinity. Or women wouldn't have to prove their worth twice over to be seen as equally capable as a man.

They're also named as the fairer sex, the better half. Is that something okay because it's positive?

Feminity is seen as an inherent quality you just bring out. Masculinity is seen as a tool to motivate proving your usefulness.

A woman can prove her worth by being just as good as a man, although some may doubt her at first more than they would a man. A man can't do the reverse and acquire inherent worth. So trans women are seen as the worst usurpers, invaders. Which is why they're punished and reviled while trans men pass under the radar, nothing to do with "well who wouldn't want to be a man" radfem theories.

A woman is doubted more simply because men who are not up to par are 'removed' by the system fast enough (men who aren't useful are considered a burden, so people don't want them around for any reason, women could stay around for other reasons). While as we have seen for firefighters sometimes, the standards are lowered for women just to have a quota. That'll bring a "you didn't prove yourself as much as I had to" resentment. Even without official quotas, women are often given more leeway and not always out of "you couldn't do it anyway", there's also a "I like you even before you prove yourself" favoritism. Depends on the person if it'll be a superiority complex or chivalric gesture.

If you compare a girl acting like a boy, and a boy acting like a girl... The girl is called "tomboy", and is told that it's perfectly fine. The boy is called a "sissy" and often threatened with ridicule and/or violence if he doesn't conform.

100 years or less ago, girls who didn't conform got the same treatment. So it's relatively new, not The Universal Norm. Women got relaxed roles and men haven't.

On the surface, yes, this looks like discrimination against men, and in effect that is what it is. But if you look at the underlying reasons, it's a lot more complicated than that.

No one cared about helping men. Simple as that. Men who conform are easier to control. Women who are free spend more money. Capitalism.

It's wrong when you can have masculine women seen as a positive thing and feminine men be a negative thing.

Masculine women are not seen as particularly positive. Useful women are. A woman who swears like a sailor and spits, yet doesn't help people in some way, will be seen as not useful, and negatively for shunning her value (just like a ugly man who does nothing useful).

Men who flaunt themselves are seen as deserters rather than someone who brings more to the table, EVEN if he's useful. Because if he has time to flaunt himself, he could use that time to be more useful. Only the 1% and aristocracy men are free to flaunt as much as they want without being useful at all (and lower classes resent them sometimes, for it).

The same argument you're using has been used to point out the objectifying of women -- basically that men are valued for what they do, while women are valued for what they are.

Men are objectified as useful objects. Except women can opt out from the beauty race, without being homeless and dateless. Men can't opt out from being useful without that.

Source: I haven't used make-up in months, no one cares. I don't follow fashion and my clothing budget is below 200$ a year. My hair maintenance routine is extremely easy, and cheap, despite having long (waist length) hair. I also don't wear brand names or care what other women would think of me for it. Doesn't make me unattractive to people I'd want to attract (superficial alone won't do it), even if it might make me less popular than otherwise. The bar is too high for me to bother or care. I invest my energy elsewhere.

[Roegadyn_Bear]

I know D: How dare they drag the whole "men can't wear dresses because it's gay/weird/wrong" issue into the games. They should keep their IRL notions IRL, and let men and women dress however they want in a fantasy game.

Exactly! Dresses for everyone!

Hmm, yes. Because assumptions stemming from misunderstandings are always correct.

Just like the assumption you made that I was against men wearing dresses.

*Sage nod*

[Noxifer]

Just like the assumption you made that I was against men wearing dresses.

*Sage nod*

Sorry, didn't take the quote from you to suggest you were against it, and didn't even consider it might be seen that way ^^; it was just the best quote to point out how the usual "stop bringing your equality sh** into a game" argument can easily be used the other way ^^; I have read some of your other posts on this subject, after all ^_~

[Terrini]

I should update it with more I suppose, more unisex skirts or feminine outfits for men, but that doesn't change the discrepancies: Gender outfit discrepancies.

[Cherie]

The only argument I have to this is lalafells are flat chested and still allowed to wear generally skimpy attire, so I might have some trouble believing its the chest that's the problem, but that's just my perception.

Oh good point, I didn't think about Lalas. Also, I saw the hildy pick with a dress on so clearly they can make it work.

But, funny thing, did you all know that high heeled shoes were originally worn by men likely first? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel_%28shoe%29#Male_wear

And pink used to be a color that people associated with boys instead of girls: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink#The_19th_century

Stuff like that just tells me that lots of stuff is girly cause we say it is or we see girls wear it. So, be sure to buy the men in your life some pink high heels. If he says he doesn't want them, just explain that in the 19th century, that was the epitome of manliness.

[Savagelf]

please forgive Us Square Enix we sorry that we seem be as american foolish on most parts. we not all believe this something support when we don't want see woman have endure a man going into same restroom as them.

social disorder is aspergers

I feel many time we see this brought up i feel we keep push this down square enix throat. we let square enix be themself and not tried change them. Square Enix is base in Japen they culture and are culture are different please don't tried force your desire on them

[Noxifer]

They're also named as the fairer sex, the better half. Is that something okay because it's positive?

Labels as such are rarely okay IMO, though I've mostly seen the latter of those two come out as a common joke between spouses -- I've seen it used both ways, actually, though it's usually more frowned upon when labelling a man ("What? You're saying he's automatically better than you because he's a man?"), which wouldn't be such a loaded thing to do if it hadn't been for the long struggle for women to get out of being 'property'. (And no, it's been a long time since they were seen as such, but it'll probably take a couple of more decades or centuries before people stop with the knee-jerk reactions.)

A woman can prove her worth by being just as good as a man, although some may doubt her at first more than they would a man. A man can't do the reverse and acquire inherent worth. So trans women are seen as the worst usurpers, invaders. Which is why they're punished and reviled while trans men pass under the radar, nothing to do with "well who wouldn't want to be a man" radfem theories.

I... wouldn't count it as radical feminism, to be honest. It's not the whole picture, but it is part of the package. I know of trans men who've been accused of merely wanting a higher paycheck, or of being feminists (strange as it may seem). They also tend to pass under the radar when it comes to being taken seriously by medical staff (male behaviour and clothing being a lot more acceptable for biological females than female behaviour and clothing is for biological males).

100 years or less ago, girls who didn't conform got the same treatment. So it's relatively new, not The Universal Norm. Women got relaxed roles and men haven't.

Which is also pretty much why people are arguing for unisex outfits, even the more feminine-looking ones. And yes, we are approaching gender equality. "Letting" women wear men's clothes (e.g. pants) is one part of it. Letting men wear women's clothes (without being beaten and/or mocked) is one step we haven't gotten to.

Personally, being on the male side of the fence, I see it as fairly obvious that one of the larger underlying reasons to the reluctance to such behaviour (men in skirts) is the unwillingness to appear weak, feminine traits being seen as weakness in a man. It's slowly getting better, of course, but when I grew up boys were still being taught not to cry, not to show emotions, because only girls or babies do that. Boys liking pink immediately being mocked for it by other children, because it's a girl colour. (The italicized words often said in a mocking tone.)

Masculine women are not seen as particularly positive. Useful women are. A woman who swears like a sailor and spits, yet doesn't help people in some way, will be seen as not useful, and negatively for shunning her value (just like a ugly man who does nothing useful).

I'm not talking about swearing and spitting, though. I'm talking about "masculine" qualities such as strength, leadership, self-confidence, courage. And no, I don't think those should be considered male traits at all, but a lot of people do. Just google 'male personality traits' ^_~
(Though as a note, women exibiting the same degree as a man of certain behaviour patterns tend to be described in very different terms than the man would. So I'm well aware that it's not as simple as that.)

[karateorangutang]

Don't know if this has been brought up.

I'm totally for non-conformity of gender roles.

However, I haven't done a ton of research as to exactly where this has been released, but would it be a good business move on their part. Is there regions where the game would get a steep decline due to the discomfort with social norms where that might not be as well received as some places.

Just food for thought.

[Savagelf]

to be honest I don't see problem with have kilt in game mind you this male version of skirt. the Scottish wear kilt.

i kind suprise the heavenward didn't have kilts like armor

[Noxifer]

to be honest I don't see problem with have kilt in game mind you this male version of skirt. the Scottish wear kilt

Well, they already have skirts available for male characters, and there's been no outrage regarding it. The problem is that female characters have a bunch of extra outfits that male characters don't. There are a couple (swimsuits, yukata, NPC outfits from gold saucer) that have male and female equivalents. But then there are all those other gearsets where they've released two sets; one female-only, one unisex. Meaning female characters get two gearsets and male characters get one. And that's pretty much the issue that most people posting (and agreeing with) these threads have ^^;

In my eyes, it would take less resources to tweak said female-only outfits to make them unisex than it would take to make a third male-only outfit for those gearset themes. (Of course, the least resources would be taken up by the devs simply ignoring the already released gearsets ¬_¬)