parse for ps4 users !

[Malevicton]

I'll quote myself, as it seems that some people think about parsers in a void, thus only seeing their benefits:


You just need to see the behavior of these players here and in every other MMO that has allowed or implemented open parsers (or here, even with the "don't talk about it" policy). It's not just a small number of people noticing this, otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion in every MMO out there.

Thing is, we don't have that conversation in other MMO's. I just googled "WoW recount harassment" for kicks and there was 1 result in the first page, called "Recount needs to die" that was about players being rude with recount. Nearly every post in that thread disagreed with the op. There were no other results on the front page, every other result was people asking for help with setup. Meanwhile, if you google for "FFxiv parser harassment" you get an absurd amount of threads saying pretty much what you're saying; that it's inevitable. This community has a particular fear of parsers that's exclusive. But other mmos, like WoW, that already have parsers? Look at their threads and you find nothing to support that. So I agree that we can look at our experiences in other MMOs to inform our decisions here, but apparently you and I have had very different experiences, and if google is worth anything, then your experience seems significantly less common.

There's also this (now pretty common) video from WoW where someone experimented with this type of stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas (for the people who don't wanna get dragged into an 11 minute video, someone made a new character and afk or autoattacked through all but the hardcore raid content and only got kicked once). That's been much more indicative of my experience, in both ffxiv and other mmos. Don't you guys remember all the people that would afk in LotA as soon as loot dropped? Sometimes they'd get votekicked, a lot of times people would just roll their eyes and move on. I'm sure anyone can cherrypick an example of parser harassment, but that doesn't mean there's any trend. If we look to other MMOs to help establish that trend, they do the opposite, they seem to support that there's no increase in harassment whatsoever.

[whiskeybravo]

Except that doesn't really solve anything in context to group performance, especially PUGs. Unless i'm in a full party of people i know and trust a personal parser is practically useless in group content.

No one is going to be truthful about their numbers out of fear of being kicked/harassed. In the end it needs to be a full parser and not a half-assed attempt at a DPS meter otherwise the feedback is very situational and people will continue to use a 3rd party alternative to find out the real problem.

By all means they can implement their instanced personal parser for rotation testing, etc. but it will be useless for any actual group content because nothing is out in the open, we can't see the changes in peoples DPS/heals in real time as the situation changes, we can't judge what's causing the issue. We'll have virtually the same information we have now, which is next to nothing and that "something" is wrong.

I'm sure there are a few, but chances are slim you'd find a full 8/8 ps4 static. Even then, what else are they going to be able use? Nothing..

As for harassment, you kind of sound like the government. "No one is going to tell us what their conversations are so we need to tap everyones phone and listen illegally" Lol. Parse police

I just threw out some ideas, doesn't mean it's the complete picture. A little imagination is necessary to find something that would work well and provide enough information to act on one way or the other, while respecting whatever hardware limitations are present with the console. I specifically mentioned it shouldn't try to replace existing 3rd party apps for PC. But right now there is nothing on ps4, so just about anything would be an improvement.

And just as an aside. ACT hasn't told our group one thing about why we are wiping in A3S, it can't correct human errors :P

[Misutoraru]

This so much. Parsers don't cause harassment. Harassers cause harassment. You can already report harassers.

sames go for all the weapon in the world
it is a tool
it is the user intention causing all the trouble
no one can be sure it wont turn into a tool being misuse
and i can assure you, there are already ppl harassing other even without numbers
we can avoid harassment via internet by not using certain software, not going to certain website
it will help improve some ppl skills
it will also be misuse by jerk
it is inevitable
a tool always have two side
there are no argument
ppl who support it feel the good out weight the bad
ppl who against it feel the bad out weight the good
those are all number from their experience or internet search


we could tackle with harassment there are tons of way of solving
but at the end, SE is a company, economically efficient will always be a big concern
not implementing it is a way, extreme but effective
increase more GM to handle harassment is a way, is it efficient? SE will have to decide

there are no absolute right or wrong, in supporting it or against it
ppl who support it or against it have their own concern
each of us have our own ruler

[Misutoraru]

The biggest thing I take from the 'anti-parser' comments isn't so much 'hell no' as 'implement it intelligently, don't just drop it in'. If implemented right it won't be as readily abused by those who would abuse it.

there are ppl completely against it
but there are ppl like me, not against it if it implement the right way
i think we (who involve in this thread) have to stop trying to persuade the other side
but work together to find the best solution of implementation that would suit the need of both side

[WinterLuna]

To be honest, there's the extremes of both sides, the people saying 'omg nobody gets harassed stop acting like they do' and then the people who are completely againt a parser and use harassment (and only harassment) as their entire argument.

I'm still in the middle, I don't really have an opinion because I know both sides have a point. Yes, parsers are useful, and yes, people are A-holes when using them. I don't care if it's the parser causing them to be like that, if a parser is involved in the harassment report that's what SE are going to see and associate it with.

But when it comes down to it, it's up to Square Enix. They're well aware of the controversy and high demand for a parser. If they want to add one, they will. It's as simple as that. If they don't, then they have their reasons. The masses of arguments on here aren't going to change anything.

[Yshnal]

Thing is, we don't have that conversation in other MMO's. I just googled "WoW recount harassment" for kicks and there was 1 result in the first page, called "Recount needs to die" that was about players being rude with recount. Nearly every post in that thread disagreed with the op. There were no other results on the front page, every other result was people asking for help with setup. Meanwhile, if you google for "FFxiv parser harassment" you get an absurd amount of threads saying pretty much what you're saying; that it's inevitable. This community has a particular fear of parsers that's exclusive. But other mmos, like WoW, that already have parsers? Look at their threads and you find nothing to support that. So I agree that we can look at our experiences in other MMOs to inform our decisions here, but apparently you and I have had very different experiences, and if google is worth anything, then your experience seems significantly less common.

Nice try but, as I remember having this discussion more than once before, I just did a search with "dps meters are bad" (those are the key words that end up appearing sooner or later) and I got plenty of results about related topics from: WoW, Rift, SWTOR, Tera, ESO... Not counting the ones on Reddit, Gamefaqs, et al., and FFXIV too, of course. And that just on the first page. So yes, this has been discussed to death in every MMO out there, with the same arguments from both parties. It's a fact that there's a rift in the MMO playerbase in that regard.

SE is trying to get a compromise with what they intend (or seem to) do. We should give ideas and support it for now, until we see how it works. Meanwhile, we all should just agree to disagree, be it those that want them, those that don't, and those that are in the middle.

[Malevicton]

Nice try but, as I remember having this discussion more than once before, I just did a search with "dps meters are bad" (those are the key words that end up appearing sooner or later) and I got plenty of results about related topics from: WoW, Rift, SWTOR, Tera, ESO... Not counting the ones on Reddit, Gamefaqs, et al., and FFXIV too, of course. And that just on the first page. So yes, this has been discussed to death in every MMO out there, with the same arguments from both parties. It's a fact that there's a rift in the MMO playerbase in that regard.

SE is trying to get a compromise with what they intend (or seem to) do. We should give ideas and support it for now, until we see how it works. Meanwhile, we all should just agree to disagree, be it those that want them, those that don't, and those that are in the middle.

First of all, are they bad is a completely different question from do they cause harassment, but alright, let's take a look at those topics shall we?

http://www.engadget.com/2014/12/12/t...-bad-for-mmos/ Is a series of rhetorical questions from a crafter's blog based on a comment they saw on a different thread. There are no comments on this thread to answer their self-serving rhetorical questions.

http://forums.riftgame.com/general-d...eters-bad.html Everyone in this thread disagrees with the op.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/11547145531 This person says they've always been against parsers and have been playing WoW since beta. The post is made in 2014. That's a lot of play time. They say they've had 3 incidents with dps meters. 3. By 2014, since the beta. And that's from a person who's obviously trying their best to make meters sound bad, and all they can come up with is 3 incidents. (also pretty much everyone disagrees with this op as well)

3 more of the links are for ffxiv, which just further my point that this community is way more obsessed with meters than other communities. We don't even have a parser but we have more threads about parser harassment on the front page than other mmos.

Then there are 2 topics near the bottom of the page of people asking for meters.

Some of the sub-topics from the WoW recount topics are people asking how they can get better dps.

I remain unconvinced. I'm sure you've had the discussion more than once, and sure the topic exists, but it's not nearly as widespread as you seem to think. ffxiv has a weird fixation on it, way more than other mmos.

[MentheusDreyar]

I'm sure there are a few, but chances are slim you'd find a full 8/8 ps4 static. Even then, what else are they going to be able use? Nothing..

As for harassment, you kind of sound like the government. "No one is going to tell us what their conversations are so we need to tap everyones phone and listen illegally" Lol. Parse police

I just threw out some ideas, doesn't mean it's the complete picture. A little imagination is necessary to find something that would work well and provide enough information to act on one way or the other, while respecting whatever hardware limitations are present with the console. I specifically mentioned it shouldn't try to replace existing 3rd party apps for PC. But right now there is nothing on ps4, so just about anything would be an improvement.

And just as an aside. ACT hasn't told our group one thing about why we are wiping in A3S, it can't correct human errors :P

My static is 6/8 PS4 players and they rely on me for our parsing, if i wasn't in there they'd have no feedback whatsoever, which is why we need a parser of some form at least, i agree on that. But a straight up DPS meter only tells you one thing, it won't tell you healPS, outgoing heals, incoming damage, etc. All necessary when you're trying to be as efficient as possible.

Haha i wouldn't take it that far but there's no way i'd believe possible falsified data by players unwilling to share in the first place, especially when they are wasting 3+ other peoples time. The average person would to anything do protect themselves, and it only gets worse online

But that's the problem, we need more than just DPS data, healer's could be under healing and causing wipes, with a full parser we'd be able to see how much damage is going out and when so healer's can prepare for it, we can see where DPS will fall because we have to deal with adds and mechanics and how we can reduce that DPS loss. None of this you'll get from a personal dps meter, and random PUGs probably won't believe a single player's data if they are the only one parsing.

And of course a tool can't predict and tell you human errors, it does have it's limitations like everything, but it'll get you 90% of the way there easily. The rest comes down to skill, luck and RNG

I guess my point is... If it's at all technically possible to have a full parser in-game we absolutely need that. If it's too much for consoles to handle or server limitation's prevents that much info being shared then just a DPS meter will suffice for general content, but it needs to be shared to everyone in the party. Otherwise there is no point in bothering at all and nothing will ever change and bad players will continue to be kicked because we can't legally help them without risking a ban ourselves and it's not like DPS are precious for anything. Hidden numbers causes player ignorance and laziness in the end.

[ShanaShirayuki]

I like how the Anti-Parser crowd still hasn't given an answer for why tanks/healers are held to a higher standard while DPS get a free pass on suboptimal performance (especially when there is content outside of raid environments that have DPS checks).

[Ryel]

I like how the Anti-Parser crowd still hasn't given an answer for why tanks/healers are held to a higher standard while DPS get a free pass on suboptimal performance (especially when there is content outside of raid environments that have DPS checks).

I keep waiting for this as well