parse for ps4 users !

[Sapphic]

Read my last post, please.

Can't see where you answer my question, just personal anecdotal "evidence".

So, enlighten me, where DO you answer that DPS don't need to be as accountable as tanks and healers in regards to performance in a team setting?

[Yshnal]

Can't see where you answer my question, just personal anecdotal "evidence".

So, enlighten me, where DO you answer that DPS don't need to be as accountable as tanks and healers in regards to performance in a team setting?

(Good) parsers don't just parse dps. They also parse healing, mitigation, etc., so that you check and read it all to be able to know where's the culprit, and why something happened. Nowhere did I talk about a dps meter (nor does the thread title talk about that), so I don't really understand your fixation with me about this. A simple dps meter would be moot for the reasons that I state, as what you really want to know is WHY someone doesn't reach certain thresholds, be it for mitigation, healing, and also dps, of course (and that's why you need to be able to read what the tool is telling you, instead of just looking at the numbers). That people fail to grasp this and just keep talking about parsers as simple dps meters, and as if dps always drops as a direct consequence of a dps not playing right, is not anecdotal evidence, and it simply proves my point: most players wouldn't even know how to use a parser, thus it would serve no good at all on their hands.

Do you want that people learn to play their jobs (regardless of if they are dps or not)? Give suggestions for the upcoming training grounds. That should help players learn the basics about how to deal with mechanics and how to use their healing, mitigation, and dps rotations. If you just introduce a parser (or worse, a simple dps meter) you will only help the same people that already know their stuff, as they would be the only ones that would be able to use it correctly outside of FC/LS/static groups, while at the same time giving other players a tool that, without further guidance, they will probably use wrong. Now tell me where the majority of the playerbase lies, according to your requests and the urge for a parser.

I mainly tank (well, 99% of the time, as I haven't touched my dps jobs in a while), and believe me when I tell you that I know why you say that. But I can also see that simply doing what you ask wouldn't fix almost anything, while also bringing other problems to the table. There's better solutions than asking for a dps meter.

[Malevicton]

I'll quote myself, as it seems that some people think about parsers in a void, thus only seeing their benefits:


You just need to see the behavior of these players here and in every other MMO that has allowed or implemented open parsers (or here, even with the "don't talk about it" policy). It's not just a small number of people noticing this, otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion in every MMO out there.

Thing is, we don't have that conversation in other MMO's. I just googled "WoW recount harassment" for kicks and there was 1 result in the first page, called "Recount needs to die" that was about players being rude with recount. Nearly every post in that thread disagreed with the op. There were no other results on the front page, every other result was people asking for help with setup. Meanwhile, if you google for "FFxiv parser harassment" you get an absurd amount of threads saying pretty much what you're saying; that it's inevitable. This community has a particular fear of parsers that's exclusive. But other mmos, like WoW, that already have parsers? Look at their threads and you find nothing to support that. So I agree that we can look at our experiences in other MMOs to inform our decisions here, but apparently you and I have had very different experiences, and if google is worth anything, then your experience seems significantly less common.

There's also this (now pretty common) video from WoW where someone experimented with this type of stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas (for the people who don't wanna get dragged into an 11 minute video, someone made a new character and afk or autoattacked through all but the hardcore raid content and only got kicked once). That's been much more indicative of my experience, in both ffxiv and other mmos. Don't you guys remember all the people that would afk in LotA as soon as loot dropped? Sometimes they'd get votekicked, a lot of times people would just roll their eyes and move on. I'm sure anyone can cherrypick an example of parser harassment, but that doesn't mean there's any trend. If we look to other MMOs to help establish that trend, they do the opposite, they seem to support that there's no increase in harassment whatsoever.

[Yshnal]

Thing is, we don't have that conversation in other MMO's. I just googled "WoW recount harassment" for kicks and there was 1 result in the first page, called "Recount needs to die" that was about players being rude with recount. Nearly every post in that thread disagreed with the op. There were no other results on the front page, every other result was people asking for help with setup. Meanwhile, if you google for "FFxiv parser harassment" you get an absurd amount of threads saying pretty much what you're saying; that it's inevitable. This community has a particular fear of parsers that's exclusive. But other mmos, like WoW, that already have parsers? Look at their threads and you find nothing to support that. So I agree that we can look at our experiences in other MMOs to inform our decisions here, but apparently you and I have had very different experiences, and if google is worth anything, then your experience seems significantly less common.

Nice try but, as I remember having this discussion more than once before, I just did a search with "dps meters are bad" (those are the key words that end up appearing sooner or later) and I got plenty of results about related topics from: WoW, Rift, SWTOR, Tera, ESO... Not counting the ones on Reddit, Gamefaqs, et al., and FFXIV too, of course. And that just on the first page. So yes, this has been discussed to death in every MMO out there, with the same arguments from both parties. It's a fact that there's a rift in the MMO playerbase in that regard.

SE is trying to get a compromise with what they intend (or seem to) do. We should give ideas and support it for now, until we see how it works. Meanwhile, we all should just agree to disagree, be it those that want them, those that don't, and those that are in the middle.

[Malevicton]

Nice try but, as I remember having this discussion more than once before, I just did a search with "dps meters are bad" (those are the key words that end up appearing sooner or later) and I got plenty of results about related topics from: WoW, Rift, SWTOR, Tera, ESO... Not counting the ones on Reddit, Gamefaqs, et al., and FFXIV too, of course. And that just on the first page. So yes, this has been discussed to death in every MMO out there, with the same arguments from both parties. It's a fact that there's a rift in the MMO playerbase in that regard.

SE is trying to get a compromise with what they intend (or seem to) do. We should give ideas and support it for now, until we see how it works. Meanwhile, we all should just agree to disagree, be it those that want them, those that don't, and those that are in the middle.

First of all, are they bad is a completely different question from do they cause harassment, but alright, let's take a look at those topics shall we?

http://www.engadget.com/2014/12/12/t...-bad-for-mmos/ Is a series of rhetorical questions from a crafter's blog based on a comment they saw on a different thread. There are no comments on this thread to answer their self-serving rhetorical questions.

http://forums.riftgame.com/general-d...eters-bad.html Everyone in this thread disagrees with the op.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/11547145531 This person says they've always been against parsers and have been playing WoW since beta. The post is made in 2014. That's a lot of play time. They say they've had 3 incidents with dps meters. 3. By 2014, since the beta. And that's from a person who's obviously trying their best to make meters sound bad, and all they can come up with is 3 incidents. (also pretty much everyone disagrees with this op as well)

3 more of the links are for ffxiv, which just further my point that this community is way more obsessed with meters than other communities. We don't even have a parser but we have more threads about parser harassment on the front page than other mmos.

Then there are 2 topics near the bottom of the page of people asking for meters.

Some of the sub-topics from the WoW recount topics are people asking how they can get better dps.

I remain unconvinced. I'm sure you've had the discussion more than once, and sure the topic exists, but it's not nearly as widespread as you seem to think. ffxiv has a weird fixation on it, way more than other mmos.

[_slowpoke_]

So, one more time: How do parsers cause or increase the amounts of negative behavior?

This so much. Parsers don't cause harassment. Harassers cause harassment. You can already report harassers.


Dear anti-parser folks, are you against the Internet? Why not? People use the Internet to harass, every day. You should be against the Internet. And basically every other form of communication ever invented by humankind, because, you know, harassment.

Sounds ridiculous? That's because it is. But that's quite literally the argument you are making. It's fallacious as hell.

Mind you I'm not saying harassment is a fact of life, whether in meatspace or online, we should quietly accept. Quite the opposite, we should actively fight it. But to do that, we need to fight harassers, and not the tools they happen to use. If you are so against harassment, petition SE to hire more GMs and implement better rules and mechanisms so harassers can get reported, warned, and/or banned both easier and faster. Step in if you see someone get harassed. Make harassment something that's not accepted within the greater community, and which is actively punished if it happens anyway.

But stop blaming some tool. A tool that does nothing but gather data & calculate numbers for you, because, you know, that's what computers are pretty good at (and humans suck at). It's up to you and your fellow players to give those numbers context and meaning. If the community is so shitty and toxic that people will use these numbers to harass each other, then they'd have done that without the numbers as well.

[Misutoraru]

This so much. Parsers don't cause harassment. Harassers cause harassment. You can already report harassers.

sames go for all the weapon in the world
it is a tool
it is the user intention causing all the trouble
no one can be sure it wont turn into a tool being misuse
and i can assure you, there are already ppl harassing other even without numbers
we can avoid harassment via internet by not using certain software, not going to certain website
it will help improve some ppl skills
it will also be misuse by jerk
it is inevitable
a tool always have two side
there are no argument
ppl who support it feel the good out weight the bad
ppl who against it feel the bad out weight the good
those are all number from their experience or internet search


we could tackle with harassment there are tons of way of solving
but at the end, SE is a company, economically efficient will always be a big concern
not implementing it is a way, extreme but effective
increase more GM to handle harassment is a way, is it efficient? SE will have to decide

there are no absolute right or wrong, in supporting it or against it
ppl who support it or against it have their own concern
each of us have our own ruler