parse for ps4 users !

[Jetstream_Fox]

Don't need it, don't want it. It tells you a number that is all, it doesn't take the controller/keyboard from you and play the game for you. A number simple won't increase a players skill, if they don't know when to use a skill or understand the class a parse won't help them. Just because you can see your output doesn't mean you actually know how to increase output. The game needs a training environment I'll agree, but having something that will lead to abuse and player segregation isn't the way to go.

[seekified]

Don't need it, don't want it. It tells you a number that is all, it doesn't take the controller/keyboard from you and play the game for you. A number simple won't increase a players skill, if they don't know when to use a skill or understand the class a parse won't help them. Just because you can see your output doesn't mean you actually know how to increase output. The game needs a training environment I'll agree, but having something that will lead to abuse and player segregation isn't the way to go.

It won't lead to more harassment, this point has already been proven. It will lead to people asking themselves "I wonder why my number is much lower than this other person's number", which is a trigger for at least trying to get better, because in the end nobody wants to be bad.

I definitely think that there should be more ingame to train you in your job as well, ideally as part of your class guild progression, since apparently reading tooltips and whatnot either isn't enough or is something that a lot of people don't do on their own.

[Misutoraru]

Absolutely. I think it\\'s true that harassment so I personally don\\'t see increased harassment as an issue. And, as people have also said, studies have been done on this in other MMOs and haven\\'t found any correlation between parsers and increased harassment.

If an ingame parser was presented in a positive way with hint windows and encouraging texts, people would get used to it pretty quickly. Or so I hope.

The study...
I can made a study to bias high correlation, alternatively I could do the opposite
Meter and harassment is not simply meter implement vs harassment
There are complex condition, how to sample, and how strong the sample could represent other populations
we have to accept this tool is a sword with 2 blades
It will improve ppl skill, and it will be misuse as tool for harrassment
The sooner both side drop their extreme prejudge, the faster we could all work together to come up with something we all want

[Jetstream_Fox]

It won't lead to more harassment, this point has already been proven. It will lead to people asking themselves "I wonder why my number is much lower than this other person's number", which is a trigger for at least trying to get better, because in the end nobody wants to be bad.

I definitely think that there should be more ingame to train you in your job as well, ideally as part of your class guild progression, since apparently reading tooltips and whatnot either isn't enough or is something that a lot of people don't do on their own.

There is difference between harassment and segregation. If I make a pf and state people who can't parse over 1500 will be kicked, that is creating segregation. Telling someone they suck because they can't parse high is harassment. This game is already completely anti community, we don't need to add anymore fire to it, we already have people refusing to help players learn content. And no I'm sorry watching a number doesn't help you, actually sitting down and trying different skills and using buffs at certain times help. Parse doesn't do that, it doesn't tell you "Hey because your number is 500 you should use this skill first, then this buff, followed up by this skill then that one to increase your number to 700." The player finds that out by actually practicing, it's like playing a fighting game and thinking basic free training will help you learn advanced combos for example, Street Fighter.

[Ryel]

There is difference between harassment and segregation. If I make a pf and state people who can't parse over 1500 will be kicked, that is creating segregation. Telling someone they suck because they can't parse high is harassment.

You can already do this in fact players do this all the time.

"---- Ex No 100 Law bonus"
"A-s No first timers, know up to ---- phase"

I'm not sure how saying "---- Ex, be able to do 1500 DPS" is any different.

Even if that were the case and say 5-10 of these types of parties started showing up in the PF, would you mind telling me what exactly is stopping you from creating a party that doesn't set that as a requirement?

The problem with the harassment and segregation arguments is that those making them conveniently forget that it already happens and try to attribute the behavior to parsing.

We have no issue currently with calling out and kicking tanks / healers who aren't performing up to par but the second DPS accountability is brought up it's suddenly a huge community concern. We already have tons of PFs that have various leader set requirements ranging from "No first timers" to "X item on lock" and have had so since the launch of the game but someone brings up parsers and now it's a segregation issue?

Players won't be able to understand parsers? is that really an argument?

10 seconds worth of tooltips and a tutorial could easily solve that, they could even go the extra mile and add a guildhest explaining it, it's like people are jumping through every hoop imaginable to try to find new and inventive ways to prevent DPS players from trying to improve or be held accountable for their role, and i say DPS because once again we have zero issues as a community calling out and kicking tanks and healers currently and not only can nobody accurately explain why this is, they instead sit here and sheepishly avoid the issue because they know it throws a wrench into the whole counter argument.

"It will give players a tool to harasss others"

"The community will become toxic"

These keep getting tossed around as justification as if parsers haven't been a part of MMO culture for over a decade, when time and time again the largest player response if any is apathy. This isn't uncharted territory nor are any of the results hypotheticals, we already know what will happen and we've seen it many times before. Would it promote toxicity in this game? maybe for the first few weeks to a month as the community adjusts like they do any large shift in gameplay changes, like the WAR rework or the Wanderer's minuet addition to BRD but after time they'll recover, get over it and get used to it.

Private parsers? Hide your DPS?

Why would SE go through the trouble of creating an in-game addition that is inferior to a third party alternative? If anything that option would be more "toxic" because you'd have arguments about players trying to hide from criticism once the wipes hit.

Players who are likely to harass others over DPS are just as likely to harass them for other reasons, and some of them already do. However this is what the GM staff is for to report these issues so that they can be dealt with accordingly.

I don't say this to offend anyone, but please realize that many of the points that are being made as a counter argument against this have been dis-proven like... 9 years ago.

[sirDarts]

There is difference between harassment andsegregation. If I make a pf and state people who can't parse over 1500 will be kicked, that is creating segregation. Telling someone they suck because they can't parse high is harassment. This game is already completely anti community, we don't need to add anymore fire to it, we already have people refusing to help players learn content. And no I'm sorry watching a number doesn't help you, actually sitting down and trying different skills and using buffs at certain times help. Parse doesn't do that, it doesn't tell you "Hey because your number is 500 you should use this skill first, then this buff, followed up by this skill then that one to increase your number to 700." The player finds that out by actually practicing, it's like playing a fighting game and thinking basic free training will help you learn advanced combos for example, Street Fighter.

1) How are you supposed to know that you need to improve?
2) How are you supposed to know that the changes you made to your rotation improved your numbers?
3) How are you supposed to know how much is possible to pull in a real fight that includes mechanics?

Parser answers all these questions. So yeah... Parser is a tool that shows you that you need to practice, and that your practice is going the right way.
Trying to up your DPS without a Parser is like trying to improve your times as an athlete without a stopwatch.

And before you come with an argument (that was already here several times) that "who cares about numbers, as long as content is cleared"... CONTENT IS NOT getting cleared! STORY CONTENT at that!

[Zojha]

1) How are you supposed to know that you need to improve?
2) How are you supposed to know that the changes you made to your rotation improved your numbers?
3) How are you supposed to know how much is possible to pull in a real fight that includes mechanics?

4) And why can't you figure the basics out on your own? >_>

It's simple math. We have the potency of our spells and skills. All that's left is to do a rough estimate which skill usage gives you the most potency in a given situation. Things that are self-explanatory through this: Use combos; keep DoTs up; keep self-buff up; keep slash/pierce/blunt debuff up; hit positionals if possible; use long CD abilities; use AoE only when X or more targets are hit; make use of proccs; watch your ressources.

When exactly to pop blood for blood, that's something you'd want a parser for. Doing the math is a mess. But that's high level optimization, maybe necessary for savage, but hopefully nowhere else.

[sirDarts]

4) And why can't you figure the basics out on your own? >_>

It's simple math. We have the potency of our spells and skills. All that's left is to do a rough estimate which skill usage gives you the most potency in a given situation. Things that are self-explanatory through this: Use combos; keep DoTs up; keep self-buff up; keep slash/pierce/blunt debuff up; hit positionals if possible; use long CD abilities; use AoE only when X or more targets are hit; make use of proccs; watch your ressources.

When exactly to pop blood for blood, that's something you'd want a parser for. Doing the math is a mess. But that's high level optimization, maybe necessary for savage, but hopefully nowhere else.

Yes, math that you have to do yourself. Or search for.
1) Parsers show you that you are doing stuff wrong and that you should look into more optimal rotations (the amount of icemages clearly shows that people do not know that they are doing it wrong).
2) Parsers allow you to not waste time calculating, as they do it for you.
3) Not everyone is created the same, some people might not be able to do an optimal rotation, and will lose DPS by trying to do it, instead of doing a simpler one that they can pull off perfectly.
4) Content is different! Some mechanics force downtime, or make you unable to weave in oGCD, or have phases of invincibility which makes DoTs less helpful, etc... Is it possible to have all this in your head? Yes, sure. Is everyone capable of doing it? Doubtful.

[seekified]

4) And why can't you figure the basics out on your own? >_>

It's simple math. We have the potency of our spells and skills. All that's left is to do a rough estimate which skill usage gives you the most potency in a given situation. Things that are self-explanatory through this: Use combos; keep DoTs up; keep self-buff up; keep slash/pierce/blunt debuff up; hit positionals if possible; use long CD abilities; use AoE only when X or more targets are hit; make use of proccs; watch your ressources.

When exactly to pop blood for blood, that's something you'd want a parser for. Doing the math is a mess. But that's high level optimization, maybe necessary for savage, but hopefully nowhere else.

Melees doing 300 DPS in a mix of Law and Eso gear is not high level optimization, it's pure lack of care or awareness of all the things you're doing wrong. And yet I see this every single day. It is indeed simple math, but it seems most players aren't aware they need to do said math.

[Odett]

4) And why can't you figure the basics out on your own? >_>

It's simple math. We have the potency of our spells and skills. All that's left is to do a rough estimate which skill usage gives you the most potency in a given situation. Things that are self-explanatory through this: Use combos; keep DoTs up; keep self-buff up; keep slash/pierce/blunt debuff up; hit positionals if possible; use long CD abilities; use AoE only when X or more targets are hit; make use of proccs; watch your ressources.

When exactly to pop blood for blood, that's something you'd want a parser for. Doing the math is a mess. But that's high level optimization, maybe necessary for savage, but hopefully nowhere else.

Why should I take out a spreadsheet and read through the mess on my combat log if i want to know how much DPS I did in a fight, if I can have a much easier way of doing so?

As for your second statement, a lot of players enjoy optimizing because they have fun that way. High level optimization is not just a requirement for Savage either. Sometimes, you high end optimization may be what saves a group from a DPS check in an Extreme primal or any other type of DPS check in this game in order to make up for the lack of damage other players may be outputting. Some people just enjoy having higher numbers or having friendly rivalries with other players in their FC about who can push out the most DPS. I hate going to a PC player every time I want to check my numbers because it feels like I'm bothering them. I enjoy seeing my numbers and trying to find ways to constantly improve, and having access to a parser wouldn't lead me to rely on other people for this.

The thing is that there is no "on/ off button", and that's a concept that many players don't seem to take into account. Many players like to play at their best at all times because they want to help the group out to the best of their abilities. Min-maxing may seem like a chore at first, but like with all good habits, IF that is something that you would like to do, and you keep at it, it becomes second nature and requires nowhere near the effort that it did when you first started. I don't queue up for Expert Roulette and play at the minimum level required to complete the dungeon, and then queue up for AS and magically perform better. Good habits are built over time, and many players enjoy performing their best not because content requires them too, but they simply have the most fun doing so.