WHMs and their toolkits

[winsock]

look at it the other way around
if C is sufficient, why bothering wasting mp and an GCD for A or B?

Because most of the time, you have no way of knowing beforehand if C will be sufficient by itself. For example, you don't whether xyz ranged dps is actually going to stay in the bubble to be healed.

But yeah, if the more reliable heal works, IMO, Asylum is a small waste of time and cd.

single target scenarios

Similar scenarios, with the same choices as before, substitute medica II for Regen. Again, if A is sufficient why use B or C?

All I'm trying to show is that there are numerous healing scenarios where not casting asylum is actually a small optimization, and that not casting asylum shouldn't be judged the same way as not using DS or PoM, because Asylum competes with other skills.

[Ghishlain]

Because most of the time, you have no way of knowing beforehand if C will be sufficient by itself. For example, you don't whether xyz ranged dps is actually going to stay in the bubble to be healed.

But yeah, if the more reliable heal works, IMO, Asylum is a small waste of time and cd.

Similar scenarios, with the same choices as before, substitute medica II for Regen. Again, if A is sufficient why use B or C?

All I'm trying to show is that there are numerous healing scenarios where not casting asylum is actually a small optimization, and that not casting asylum shouldn't be judged the same way as not using DS or PoM, because Asylum competes with other skills.

I have to ask how you feel not using Asylum is a small optimization because I can't see it. This is what I'm thinking in my head (assuming all abilities prompt a 0.5 second ability delay)

Asylum ---> DPS
DPS begins at 1 second (0.5s animation delay for Asylum + 0.5s animation delay to activate Cleric Stance)
100 potency / tick for 24s
0 MP consumed (can make argument that you gained 884MP since Asylum = 2 Cures)

Regen --> DPS
DPS begins at 2.5 second (waiting for Regen to complete GCD, activate Clerics during the GCD)
150 potency / tick for 21s
619 MP consumed

Divine Seal + Regen --> DPS
DPS begins at 3 seconds (0.5s animation delay for Divine Seal + 2.5s GCD for Regen)
195 Potency / tick for 21s
619 MP consumed

Regen + Asylum --> DPS
DPS begins at 2.5s (waiting for Regen to complete GCD, activate Asylum + Clerics during the GCD)
250 Potency / tick for 21s + 100 potency @ 24s
619 MP consumed (can make argument you gain 884MP since Asylum = 2 Cures)

===

If we're looking at small optimizations:

Asylum alone allows me to begin DPSing faster than Regen by itself and is more MP efficient overall (impossible to beat 0 MP efficiency though).

If you need to Divine Seal + Regen, you might as well Regen + Asylum for a higher potency HoT and slightly faster transition into Cleric Stance.

If damage from pack exceeds how much Regen + Asylum can heal for, I can at least stay in Cleric's Stance longer due to higher potency HoT total versus Divine Seal + Regen.


Not trying to be negative but I am genuinely curious about your train of thought in this regard and would like to be enlightened about your thoughts.

[Nekotee]

Not speaking about the tank/DPS who will litteraly SPRINT into the orbs until he trigger all explosion...
Making it impossible to heal between 2 explosion

Instead of just standing in the orbs path and taking them one at a time...

[Fevelle]

Not speaking about the tank/DPS who will litteraly SPRINT into the orbs until he trigger all explosion...
Making it impossible to heal between 2 explosion

Instead of just standing in the orbs path and taking them one at a time...

BLACK MAGES EATING 3 ORBS IN A ROW WHILE SPRINTING, PLEASE STOP.

[winsock]

I've rearranged the order of the post a little bit to try to make my response concise. Sorry in advance if any of this rearranging changed the context. I dont think that it did, and it isnt my intention to change anything.

Divine Seal + Regen --> DPS
DPS begins at 3 seconds (0.5s animation delay for Divine Seal + 2.5s GCD for Regen)
195 Potency / tick for 21s
619 MP consumed

Regen --> DPS
DPS begins at 2.5 second (waiting for Regen to complete GCD, activate Clerics during the GCD)
150 potency / tick for 21s
619 MP consumed

There are many circumstances where you can use DS without a time penalty, the most common of which is before the tank has secured aggro on a trash pull. MP efficiency doesnt really matter so long as you dont exit the threshold of "enough MP". So long as you have "enough MP", time efficiency > MP efficiency.

Regen + Asylum --> DPS
DPS begins at 2.5s (waiting for Regen to complete GCD, activate Asylum + Clerics during the GCD)
250 Potency / tick for 21s + 100 potency @ 24s
619 MP consumed (can make argument you gain 884MP since Asylum = 2 Cures)
...
If you need to Divine Seal + Regen, you might as well Regen + Asylum for a higher potency HoT and slightly faster transition into Cleric Stance.
...
If damage from pack exceeds how much Regen + Asylum can heal for, I can at least stay in Cleric's Stance longer due to higher potency HoT total versus Divine Seal + Regen.

You cant really reliably fit more than 2 off GCD skills in regen's gcd. If one of those is cleric stance, that means you get one off GCD skill to pick. If regen is sufficient, why use Asylum if you have options like PoM and Swiftcast?
If regen is not sufficient, why not E4E?
Also, keep in mind that staying in cleric stance longer, isnt necessarily an optimization.

Asylum ---> DPS
DPS begins at 1 second (0.5s animation delay for Asylum + 0.5s animation delay to activate Cleric Stance)
100 potency / tick for 24s
0 MP consumed (can make argument that you gained 884MP since Asylum = 2 Cures)
...
Asylum alone allows me to begin DPSing faster than Regen by itself and is more MP efficient overall (impossible to beat 0 MP efficiency though).

This would only be better than tetra if you were certain your tank would receive EVERY asylum tick.

(can make argument that you gained 884MP since Asylum = 2 Cures)

you could make the argument you gained ~890 MP with DS + regen, 3.4125 cures * 442 cure mp - 618 regen MP. (plus any additional from being able to benefit from natural restoration)

[Ghishlain]

You cant really reliably fit more than 2 off GCD skills in regen's gcd. If one of those is cleric stance, that means you get one off GCD skill to pick. If regen is sufficient, why use Asylum if you have options like PoM and Swiftcast?
If regen is not sufficient, why not E4E?
Also, keep in mind that staying in cleric stance longer, isnt necessarily an optimization.

Like how Asylum can be on cooldown, PoM, Swiftcast, and E4E can be on cooldown as well. WHM have a multitude of tools to use at their discretion and you should picking the right tool for the right job given what abilities are available. In some cases, Regen + CS + PoM IS the right call to make, in other cases Regen + Asylum + CS is the better call to make because the HPS requirement at that instance requires you to have 250 potency/tick of healing, not 150 potency/tick of healing.

Though explain to me how "staying in Cleric Stance longer isn't necessarily an optimization". You mentioned minor optimization in your post and if I wanted to optimize PoM into my rotation I'd probably end up doing Aero II --> Aero + Swiftcast --> Aero III + PoM ---> Stone III spam after I put Regen + Divine Seal + CS up.

Also, you either greatly overestimate E4E's use or you don't understand what it does. E4E is a 20% proc chance on the tank that can reduce the damage the monster does by 10% for 20s. This does nothing to the monster initially and needs time to proc so you may need more healing initially to offset the lower HPS requirement you'll gain later. Regen + E4E does not make up for what raw healing Regen + Asylum can bring to the table.

This would only be better than tetra if you were certain your tank would receive EVERY asylum tick.

As a healer, we all eventually will have to make assumptions about how our tanks play. As much as it's up to us as a White Mage to place Asylum in a position where a tank can make use of it, it's up to a tank to move in such a way where they will optimize their location inside Asylum. If they cannot, oh well. It still doesn't make Asylum less effective, it just shows either ignorance or apathy from the tank you attempted to use Asylum on and doesn't take away from Asylum's use.

you could make the argument you gained ~890 MP with DS + regen, 3.4125 cures * 442 cure mp - 618 regen MP. (plus any additional from being able to benefit from natural restoration)

Unfortunately, your logic is flawed.

Asylum is 100 potency/tick for 24 seconds. That's 800 potency over its duration.

Divine Seal ADDS 45 potency to Regen. Assuming you get a 36s duration (reapplying Regen as Divine Seal wears off) you get a total of 540 Potency over its duration (or the cost of 1.35 cures = 596.7 MP) on Regen alone. Of course Divine Seal doesn't only affect Regen but usually you want to Divine Seal + Regen ---> CS DPS --> Regen again as DS wears off on most trash so the DS benefit is usually lost when used like that.

Remember, you have to look at what each ability adds individually and inside a vacuum when comparing things. Using your logic, I can say Asylum + Regen = 250 potency/tick for 24 seconds for a total of 2,000 potency (or the cost of 5 cures = 2,210 MP) but that wasn't the point I was trying to make with my initial comment to you.

[winsock]

Like how Asylum can be on cooldown, PoM, Swiftcast, and E4E can be on cooldown as well. WHM have a multitude of tools to use at their discretion and you should picking the right tool for the right job given what abilities are available. In some cases, Regen + CS + PoM IS the right call to make, in other cases Regen + Asylum + CS is the better call to make because the HPS requirement at that instance requires you to have 250 potency/tick of healing, not 150 potency/tick of healing.

I think you may have missed my initial post in this thread. There was never a point where I was arguing that Asylum was 'never' the correct choice. Just that there are many scenarios where Asylum is not a good choice, and I dont think we disagree here. This is in contrast to a skill like DS, which is almost always a good choice.

Though explain to me how "staying in Cleric Stance longer isn't necessarily an optimization". You mentioned minor optimization in your post and if I wanted to optimize PoM into my rotation I'd probably end up doing Aero II --> Aero + Swiftcast --> Aero III + PoM ---> Stone III spam after I put Regen + Divine Seal + CS up.

Again, this isn't black and white, it just "isn't necessarily an optimization". There are circumstances where it can be an optimization, such as while you're under the effects of a buff that will increase your dmg for a limited duration; however, that's not to say that delaying cleric stance is always an optimization, esp on trash. Delaying dropping cleric stance doesnt necessarily mean that you've lowered the amount of time you've had to spend out of cleric stance for a given fight.

Also, you either greatly overestimate E4E's use or you don't understand what it does. E4E is a 20% proc chance on the tank that can reduce the damage the monster does by 10% for 20s. This does nothing to the monster initially and needs time to proc so you may need more healing initially to offset the lower HPS requirement you'll gain later. Regen + E4E does not make up for what raw healing Regen + Asylum can bring to the table.

This really depends on the amount of incoming dps.

it's up to a tank to move in such a way where they will optimize their location inside Asylum. If they cannot, oh well. It still doesn't make Asylum less effective

Ummm... it what? That's pretty much a perfect example of something that makes Asylum "less effective".

Unfortunately, your logic is flawed.

Asylum is 100 potency/tick for 24 seconds. That's 800 potency over its duration.

That was intended to be a joke i.e. I spent MP and called it an MP gain. The flawed logic is taking a change of 0, calling it a gain, then assigning an arbitrary value for said 'gain' based on a completely different skill.

[Averax]

There's not many great places to use Asylum. Most fights have groups running all over the place, and it makes Asylum worthless to cast if no one's going to benefit. It's pretty great on A3 and Bismarck.

Divine seal is a different story. That's an emergency button when everyone's taking too much damage for me to deal with. (depending on the situation, i usually precede a divine seal with a swiftcast holy to stun the enemies so i can get a small headstart on a medica 2)

[Fevelle]

Hmm... Just so I understand better, what's the problem with Asylum to begin with? A ground HoT so? What's the matter here?

[Ghishlain]

-snip-

Welp, I think at this time we'll just need to agree to disagree. It's clear I won't be able to convenience you that Asylum is worth your time and you certainly won't convince me that Asylum is useless because there are better ways to optimize WHM.

Hmm... Just so I understand better, what's the problem with Asylum to begin with? A ground HoT so? What's the matter here?

*Shrugs* I'm not sure either. To me it's underwhelming at only 100 potency / tick, but given it's free healing on a decently short cooldown, there's nothing really to hate about the ability short of skill bloat making your hotbars / crossbars too large.