useless scholars

[DarkerOrange]

So the argument seems to be 'it's ok to be bad, cos you don't have to be good'....great, lol.

[Risvertasashi]

So the argument seems to be 'it's ok to be bad, cos you don't have to be good'....great, lol.

This is a bit like saying a SMN is bad if they never use Eye for an Eye, even if they top the DPS charts.

Of course, it's ideal if one uses their full toolkit. But someone that handles their primary responsibility well isn't bad just because they neglect a few extras.

[technole]

if you are hurting for the extra dps from a sch, the dps in your party need to get good, the content is made so healers dont have to dps, nor tanks, they just "do their jobs"

Yeah, and I suppose it's my job to give a reality check: DPS is a party responsibility. It doesn't matter what color your icon is.

This reminds me of someone in the tank forum who said Alex Savage was designed for tanks to wear full VIT right side. If that were true we'd have more blistering tank busters that required the given HP, but we don't so all that extra HP is just a waste. Over 17k is just wasted in A3S. There are shorter intervals for the tank swaps in P4 compared to normal.

DPS could be putting out an average of 1400 and that could really be on the high end for their job, and it's darn hard to add another 200+ to that when they are hitting capacity with potions, and party buffs. Then you have mechanics that will arbitrary hurt their DPS to no fault of their own (quarantine in A4S). . Healers and tanks have the capacity to help raid-wide DPS, and notice I said healers. Not just one.

This is a bit like saying a SMN is bad if they never use Eye for an Eye, even if they top the DPS charts.

Of course, it's ideal if one uses their full toolkit. But someone that handles their primary responsibility well isn't bad just because they neglect a few extras.

I feel bad for anyone getting picky over a "jackpot mitigation" skill. But I totally agree.

[Risvertasashi]

I feel bad for anyone getting picky over a "jackpot mitigation" skill. But I totally agree.

Oh, there have been times (progression sorts of times) where I've begged the SMN to rotate it with me. The RNG factor really isn't that bad because auto attacks are frequent enough to trigger it and it lasts a while once triggered. It's also worth pointing out that those really early BCoB clears? A lot of their strategies included rotating E4E and Virus (before Antibodies existed). They're both really valuable abilities when you're pushing content.

OTOH, like healing DPS, it's nice but ultimately doesn't matter in other things ~.^

This reminds me of someone in the tank forum who said Alex Savage was designed for tanks to wear full VIT right side. If that were true we'd have more blistering tank busters that required the given HP, but we don't so all that extra HP is just a waste. Over 17k is just wasted in A3S. There are shorter intervals for the tank swaps in P4 compared to normal..

This actually comes from an interview/dev comment. They said healer DPS was not considered in party/raid encounter design. Tank DPS is considered, in tank stance with vit.

It is possible they changed that just for Alex Savage, I suppose, but there's been no other official information. Healer and tank DPS is still invaluable when attempting to clear below the target ilvl, and/or with DPS that are not performing to the developers' expectations.

[LegoTechnic]

snip

No, that's not an apt analogy. A SMN who doesn't Eye4Eye is closer to a BLM that doesn't use Apocatastasis or a MNK that fails to Mantra. These moves disrupt DPS rotations but take only a single cooldown. DPS'ing as a healer requires cleric stance and the 5 second cooldown lock.

For all jobs "downtime is wasteful". A DPS just auto-attacking is considered bad because they probably aren't playing the class well. Healing is a little different, but the idea of avoiding waste is just as important. This is why "overhealing" is frowned upon, as it wastes resources, and like inactivity is something a player giving their best should try to avoid. But if your heals aren't required and you have 10 seconds free then is there any reason not to land your dot rotation while the fairy heals? Don't do it if you're not comfortable with incoming damage, but if you can make the fight faster then that is something a player maximizing their role will do.

[Sidra]

You're talking about endgame raiding for players that make up a very small percentage of the population. The type of content that could actually hinge on healer DPS because Alexander savage has been a massive DPS to begin with. If a designated healer isn't DPSing in savage, something is wrong. But again, that is strictly endgame raiding, which currently makes up 4 instances out of majority of the current content. Your point is irrelevant because the majority of the population of the game aren't playing the limited content that pushes them to play more methodically.

Here's the thing though - it's not just Savage. I was solo healing some Ravana runs last night to get weapon for peoples alts and just for fun, and even though I'm a SMN main with healer alts, my 190 SCH was able to add 200 dps while solo healing. And Admittedly, I am not a very good healer. If I was a better player, I am sure I could have done more. And what if a group was doing that with 2 healers...so much time when not healing is needed. When I run 4man dungeons for dailys - I generally do like 500 dps over the whole dungeon. And if I wasn't - I'd be standing there twiddling my thumbs half the time doing nothing. I actually don't know how healers don't dps in dungeons - they must be drinking coffee and reading the news or watching a movie as they are playing.

The times when a healer shouldn't be trying to help dps are extremely limited - maybe while actually leveling with a poorly played or undergeared tank. But that's about it. The vast majority of the content simply doesn't have enough needed healing uptime to make dpsing not pretty much required/beneficial/should be doing it depending on your preferred phrasing for such.

I don't understand why people don't think that all players should be trying to use use their entire skillsets to be the best teammates they can be. I think that's fair to require of your teammates and commit to yourself.

There are a lot of games where healers can't dps while healing, or their damage is so low as to be pointless to try and do so. But FFXIV just isn't one of them. I feel like a lot of players are attempting to take their experience from other games or their personal preference of how they like to play and state it as a reality in FFXIV, when it just simply isn't the case here.

[Kabzy]

This is a bit like saying a SMN is bad if they never use Eye for an Eye, even if they top the DPS charts.

Of course, it's ideal if one uses their full toolkit. But someone that handles their primary responsibility well isn't bad just because they neglect a few extras.

Actually this is a terrible comparison. Taking SMN as the example you gave, they can simply weave in Virus and E4E as necessary while still maintaining their DPS (both ogcd). It doesn't require the same commitment as healers going into Cleric Stance. Also a DPS' primary responsibility lasts for the entire duration of the fight, healers will usually find downtime in which they can safely add to DPS and not just stand there looking pretty. So they definitely have more scope to explore their full toolkit!

[Vexander]

I'm in the Process of Leveling Summoner. However, as someone who has always played a Black Mage as their primary class, I will be perfectly honest; I came across FAR too many SCH's who thought they were DPS, not healers. Do you know how ludicrous it is to spam Physick as a Black Mage because the SCH can't be bothered to drop out of Cleric Stance and actually heal the tank? I -really- hate to say it, but that's happened to me more than once in my time playing. It doesn't keep the tank alive, but part of me hopes out of pure SHAME the Scholar will get back to healing.

So, I don't Stance Dance. I'll toss some DoTs up now and then if I know there will be a lull in incoming damage, but my priority is to keep the tank alive and the party in good shape.

As a thought to leave off on, is a DPS slacking off if they're not healing with what healing skills they possess?

[DarkerOrange]

No. Just no. Do not ever use cure/physick as a BLM, it is just bad. Stop it.

[SkyBane001]

As a thought to leave off on, is a DPS slacking off if they're not healing with what healing skills they possess?

You're making a false equivalency, and a big one. DPS is actually bad for using cross classed healing skills because they don't have healing stats and have effectively made the fight last longer by slowing the party's damage output. DPS never had downtime in a fight by design.

Healers who don't DPS are wasting time doing nothing half the fight.