A Brief History of the Black Shroud

[Enkidoh]

Ah, thanks for clarifying that Professor Moose! I knew his name started with an 'M' and had 'or' and a 'y' in it, I was just too much of a lazy cat to look back through the forum archive for past threads you had posted on the subject.

Thanks again!

[Elladie]

I have more questions before you all disappear again! Does anyone recall where the Sylphs lived in 1.x? I remember doing a quest that involved my adventuring fellow and the Sylphs where we were running about the forest under one of the latters' invisibility spells, trying to avoid Garleans. Which makes me think it was still somewhere in the Eastern Shroud. I ask because Professor Erik's information puts the Autumn War firmly in the East Shroud (mentions Nine Ivies etc) but there is no mention of the Sylphs in his account. I wouldn't think they - or the elementals - would be happy about all those pikemen and Ishgardian knights trundling around.

I also think that the Velodyna river, which Erik mentions, is probably the river on the far right of the current in-game map of the Eastern Shroud; anyone agree or disagree?

Thanks for adding the information about the Hedge, Enkidoh, that was really helpful. I'm still a bit bothered by the whole concept of woodsin and Greenwrath though; it's starting to feel as though it's one of those 'useful' devices that SE ignore when it suits them. For instance, why are the Ixali outside Fallgourd (I think it's Proud Creek, anyway at the logging camp past the Gelmorra Ruins) left in comparative peace by the elementals to wreak havoc? Why didn't the elementals intervene in the Autumn War in any way? How do they feel about the Sylphs in the Sylphlands summoning Ramuh?

Also - and I know I'm the zillionth person to say this - but this word count thing is SO ANNOYING!

[TinyRedLeaf]

I have more questions before you all disappear again! Does anyone recall where the Sylphs lived in 1.x? I remember doing a quest that involved my adventuring fellow and the Sylphs where we were running about the forest under one of the latters' invisibility spells, trying to avoid Garleans. Which makes me think it was still somewhere in the Eastern Shroud. I ask because Professor Erik's information puts the Autumn War firmly in the East Shroud (mentions Nine Ivies etc) but there is no mention of the Sylphs in his account. I wouldn't think they - or the elementals - would be happy about all those pikemen and Ishgardian knights trundling around.

I remember the quest, albeit only hazily. Yes, the sylphs lived in the East Shroud, north and east of Nine Ivies, then as now. As for the missing account, it's not unusual for historians to omit details, especially if they don't fit the narrative they are trying to construct. That aside, Erik may not be as familiar with the geography of the Twelveswood as he claims, let alone know about the impact of the Autumn War on its indigenous communities.

[Enkidoh]

Does anyone recall where the Sylphs lived in 1.x? I remember doing a quest that involved my adventuring fellow and the Sylphs where we were running about the forest under one of the latters' invisibility spells, trying to avoid Garleans. Which makes me think it was still somewhere in the Eastern Shroud. I ask because Professor Erik's information puts the Autumn War firmly in the East Shroud (mentions Nine Ivies etc) but there is no mention of the Sylphs in his account. I wouldn't think they - or the elementals - would be happy about all those pikemen and Ishgardian knights trundling around.

The sylphs homeland is Moonspore Grove in the East Shroud, which by the time of ARR is overrun with the 'touched' sylphs corrupted by Ramuh (read: tempered), but in 1.0 Ramuh had not been summoned at that time (in fact, the sylphs stated then that they would not summon him - naturally this resulted in a schism in sylvaan society later on between those who wanted to adhere to the 'no summoning' policy and those that wanted to get revenge on the 'metal ones' (the Garleans, who stormed Moonspore Grove in a misguided attempt to eliminate them) - it should be no surprise that after the Calamity the later group summoned Ramuh and were then tempered by him, turning their kin purple and driving those who still refused to follow Ramuh out of their homeland, taking sanctuary in Nine Ivies, a location they name 'Little Solace'. It should be also noted that in 1.0 when the player was tasked along with their Path Companion by Minfilia to protect the sylphs from the Garleans, they had trouble just finding Moonspore Grove's location, so well hidden was it (the Path Companion pulled strings with a friend to find it's location out). Either way, for many centuries it seems the sylphs mostly kept themselves generally hidden and out of sight of most Eorzeans, like the moogles - although Gridanians even in 1.0 made pains to mention that they were perhaps the most benign of the beastmen, at least before they summoned Ramuh of course.

I also think that the Velodyna river, which Erik mentions, is probably the river on the far right of the current in-game map of the Eastern Shroud; anyone agree or disagree?

The Velodyna River is actually not yet accessible, but it can be seen by carefully examining the Eorzean map (it's the large river to the east of Gridania that forks into two, as seen here):

Thanks for adding the information about the Hedge, Enkidoh, that was really helpful. I'm still a bit bothered by the whole concept of woodsin and Greenwrath though; it's starting to feel as though it's one of those 'useful' devices that SE ignore when it suits them. For instance, why are the Ixali outside Fallgourd (I think it's Proud Creek, anyway at the logging camp past the Gelmorra Ruins) left in comparative peace by the elementals to wreak havoc? Why didn't the elementals intervene in the Autumn War in any way? How do they feel about the Sylphs in the Sylphlands summoning Ramuh?

Well, it seems woodsin is one of those things that seems to build up over time - 1.0 showed Khrimm committing random acts of vandalism in the forest, cutting trees and setting them on fire and the like, and apart from a moogle stating that "this tree's elemental is furious!" it was only when he pushed his luck a little too far by setting a Hedgetree on fire did an elemental finally step in and punish him, turning him into a literal statue (unfortunately for Gridania the elemental went berserk and attacked everyone in the vicinity, requiring the combined might of E-Sumi Yan, O-App Pesi, Bowlord Lewin, Swyentha, Yda and Papalymo (along with the player, who was relegated to taking a back seat) to take the elemental down. O-App states that the other elementals forgave Gridania for what happened afterwards, but it outright terrified the Gridanians as to the level of violence that elemental showed. So basically woodsin doesn't cause an immediate reaction from the forest, but tends to build and fester, until a critical mass is reached by which point there is little anyone can do to save the person so affected - thus they're usually exiled as a wildling where the forest will deal with them in it's own way.

By the time of ARR though, it's actually stated during the Gridanian storyline that the Gridanians are actually noticing the increased incursions by poachers and the Ixal alike into the forest with the elementals apparently turning a blind eye, and it's downright scaring them - as you said such rampant desecration of the forest usually would not have been tolerated by the elementals and would have resulted in some kind of reaction. But nothing. It's generally believed that due to the aetheric changes caused by the Calamity, as well as the physical destruction wrought to the forest, the elementals have basically been weakened considerably - although they're like a wounded animal, unpredictable and still downright dangerous. The fact a low rank Ascian could enter the place and wreck havoc showed just how weak the elementals have become, resulting in pockets of elemental power like the Hedgetrees and the Guardian Tree Everschade being even more important than they once were. We still don't know exactly what makes the elementals tick - it's stated that as beings of pure aether they're virtually incomprehensible to mortal races thus their decisions or choices may not make sense to the mortals of Gridania, but the later are still bound to follow them anyway. It's the price they pay for Gridania's existence in the forest.

[Elladie]

Again, really helpful reply, Enkidoh! Many thanks

I've been looking at the fish that can be caught in the fishing spots that run through the Sylphlands. Several of them are native to the Velodyna and/or Hathoeva rivers which suggests to me that these waters are somehow connected to those. I did notice, though, that the Yu'gram salmon somehow manages to get up to Verdant Drop! And to the Hathoeva river. So those waterways must all be connected somehow?

Am I going looking at this too closely? XD

[Anonymoose]

Enkidoh nailed a big chunk of this while I was researching, so I'll trim it back a bit, lol.

Does anyone recall where the Sylphs lived in 1.x?

Indeed, same place, lore-wise, as the tempered ones live now. The Calamity did a number on the east Forest, though (and Thornmarch was in a completely different place, but the West Shroud is closed (for now?).

I also think that the Velodyna river, which Erik mentions, is probably the river on the far right of the current in-game map of the Eastern Shroud; anyone agree or disagree?

I'm not 100% on its location, but the Black Shroud region map shows the Velodyna cutting through an area between the central and east Shroud.

I'm still a bit bothered by the whole concept of woodsin and Greenwrath though; it's starting to feel as though it's one of those 'useful' devices that SE ignore when it suits them.

More like abandoned - woodsin hasn't been mentioned a single time since 1.0, and the greenwrath (aside from a status effect in a quest) is only mentioned in the past tense. We very, very rarely see the old-school elementals anymore, only the more-or-less mindless sprites; they may be too weak to have the effect they used to (maybe that's one of the reasons Amberscale Rock has remained untouched - they needed the Elementals and the dragons fleshed out before it could happen, perhaps). This may be directly tied to the lack of woodsin's existence - as it seemed (no promises that this is true) to be at least in part an aetherial phenomenon to begin with. I can't seem to recall many of the specifics of my original theory (I'll try to dig them up), but I think it was that the woodsin was aether tainted by the Elemental's sentiments, and that greenwrath was the creatures of the wood stirred to attack those which had the taint on them. If the Elementals are too weak to be as active or apparent as they used to be (and some people didn't even believe in them back then), there may not be enough influence to generate woodsin under post-Calamity circumstances.

Am I going looking at this too closely? XD

I wouldn't say so; the east Shroud is close to Rothlyt Sound, where a lot of these waters converge. Some fish may have migrated naturally or may even have been moved by local fishes to try to mess with the local populations. Or, like some fish logs hint, they could have by now become common in both places but only named or famous for being in one.

Holy 3,000th Post, Batman.

[Elladie]

Another question on the Black Shroud XD

In the quest dialogue concerning Spirithold in south Greentear, it's referred to by both Galfrid and Papalymo as a dungeon. Do they mean a literal dungeon (as in a prison) or are they using the word in the same way we do, namely a place where there are monsters & nasties?

Edit: actually, ignore me, I seem to remember seeing the remains of prison cells in that place. I'll go check it out when I'm in game later. I do wonder, though, about the place's history and why a prison would be named Spirithold ...

[Anonymoose]

Do they mean a literal dungeon (as in a prison)

Yep. It replaced Toto-Rak after it was closed roughly thirty years back - then it got destroyed in the Calamity and the city gave it back to the wood. One of the early quests involves the CNJ guild getting interrupted while trying to do perform the rite of returning.

actually, ignore me

Ignore the inquisitive? Me!? It's not in my blood.

[Enkidoh]

Yep. It replaced Toto-Rak after it was closed roughly thirty years back - then it got destroyed in the Calamity and the city gave it back to the wood. One of the early quests involves the CNJ guild getting interrupted while trying to do perform the rite of returning.

Was Spirithold indeed Toto-Rak's replacement as Gridania's prison though? The DF description for Toto-Rak stated that it was abandoned because of the "completion of a new gaol closer to the city", yet Spirithold seems to be very much Gelmorran in design and origins, just like Toto-Rak, hardly a 'new facility', although I guess that could be handwaved away as simply an "old structure being given a new purpose" (Spirithold does indeed seem to be a gaol like Toto-Rak). Although Gridania does indeed reuse old Gelmorran structures (like the Mun-Tuy Cellars and Tam Tara Deepcroft), the way the DF description is written it makes it seem Toto-Rak's replacement was a brand new building and not simply another old ruin from Gelmorra done up.

But I guess I'm being just being pedantic here.

Whats the origin of the elementals? what were they doing during the time of the allags? ( know the allagans are , they could have destryed the hole forest and use it as fuel lol )
Also whats their relation with the 12? if such relation exist of course.

To be really honest? No one knows! All that has been stated about the elementals is that they're beings of pure aether who seemed to have always been there - in 1.0 it was stated elementals actually exist everywhere in the world, even outside the Black Shroud in all manner of things, even rocks and water, so it's entirely possible that they may have existed there since the very dawn of time/Hydaelyn's creation. For some reason though they were more numerous and potent in the Black Shroud than anywhere else in Hydaelyn, giving the forest a kind of 'genius loci' effect where in a very real sense the forest is very much sentient itself after a fashion.

Additionally, nothing is known as to the state of the Black Shroud (and the elementals too for that matter) when the Allag Empire was at it's world-conquering height - given the suspicious lack of Allagan structures in the Shroud and the sheer power of the elementals, I would not be surprised if the Shroud was the one place the Allagans were not able to conquer - they may have tried, but the elementals probably ran rings around them, and, given the lack of any other spoken races living there, the Allag probably regarded the place as simply being of little political value - better to turn their attentions on conquering functioning societies than an empty forest populated only by powerful aetheric fairies that can make the very trees aggressive and dangerous.

As for where they fit in with the Twelve, Gridania worships the goddess Nophica the Matron, which, during a story quest in 1.0, a moogle stated that the most powerful elemental of all, the elemental who inhabits Everschade the Guardian Tree, decreed that "those beckoned by the wood" (ala, Yda, Papalymo and the player), are "Messengers of Nophica" - this revelation surprised even E-Sumi Yan, who was slightly and visibly shaken by this. Although 1.0 has retconned much, it would be very interesting to see exactly what was meant by this (that plotline ultimately never was resolved or went anywhere so it's sadly possible that it's been abandoned - a shame as I was very intrigued about what the 'pudgy moogle' meant by that.).

Either way, it seems there is at least some connection between the Twelve (at least, Nophica anyway) and the elementals, but exactly how deep that connection is, is unknown at this stage.