An Analysis Of The Crafting Endgame

[Katlyna]

In my eyes the main issues are as follows focused on the issue of economic and script availability issues.

1) All crafted raid/adventuring gear is now gated by crafter AND gathering tokens. This means that adventures must both craft and gather for the same gear to be generated which was available by the 2.0 raid drops. This is terrible because people who adventure have NO DESIRE TO DO THIS. Consequently the cost to produce 3.0 adventuring gear is impossibly high. And this is causing crafters to have no viable reason to produce half our recipies. Also the iLev for 2 star adventuring gear is too low.
2) Because adventurers no longer have any drops to sell to crafters, they get no gil from crafters.
3) Adventures no longer have equipment to buy from crafters (since we can't viably produce 2 star adventuring gear) so they no longer have any reason to pay crafters.
4) Generating red crafting tokens requires ~0.5-1 million worth of parts to be handed in each week.
5) Because of the cost few crafters are participating in red scrips.
6) Generating red folklore token items requires a massive time investment by foragers. Example 30 minutes to complete 5 favors x 9 tokens = 4.5 hours of gathering a week not including time to gather the red scripts in the first place.
7) Gatherers require a massive number of red tokens to purchase their own upgrade gear.
8) Because of the time investment few gathers are actively acquiring red scripts making folklore tokens rare and expensive.
8) Two star foraging gear (except accessories) is unavailable for crafting. This means crafters have nothing to sell foragers... even though we are potentially paying them massive amounts of money for the new red scrip crafting drops.

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Also the whole 2 star system is needlessly complicated for all the wrong reasons. There are so many idiotic UI decisions in the mess which make things complicated for the wrong reasons. We can only hold one weeks worth of red scripts... red scripts are handed in for red tokens a secondary currency WHY?!?! There are 40 different folk lore token drops (20 if you don't include HQ). Red/blue script nodes only stay up for a VERY short time. Keeping track of node pops, what slot you're supposed to unveil, the collectablity number, etc requires a day planner or a website.... WHY?!?!! All of that information should be in the UI easily available for players. Why can't my character remember Chysahl greens come from slot 6... is she really that dumb? These are all pointless decisions which make the system more cumbersome for others to learn, adding to the overall problem.

[Sollux]

1) All crafted raid/adventuring gear is now gated by crafter AND gathering tokens. This means that adventures must both craft and gather for the same gear to be generated which was available by the 2.0 raid drops. This is terrible because people who adventure have NO DESIRE TO DO THIS. Consequently the cost to produce 3.0 adventuring gear is impossibly high. And this is causing crafters to have no viable reason to produce half our recipies. Also the iLev for 2 star adventuring gear is too low.
2) Because adventurers no longer have any drops to sell to crafters, they get no gil from crafters.
3) Adventures no longer have equipment to buy from crafters (since we can't viably produce 2 star adventuring gear) so they no longer have any reason to pay crafters.
7) Gatherers require a massive number of red tokens to purchase their own upgrade gear.
8) Because of the time investment few gathers are actively acquiring red scripts making folklore tokens rare and expensive.

I think SE was planning for the long term with the new system and either lost sight of the short term or felt it was inevitable that there would be complaints at the start. With all of the limitations of the current system it actually does a pretty good job of keeping each class focused on their own progression, possibly in preparation for 3.1 and beyond when Combat, Crafting, and Gathering can (Hopefully) benefit each other in an equal way again.

4) Generating red crafting tokens requires ~0.5-1 million worth of parts to be handed in each week.
5) Because of the cost few crafters are participating in red scrips.

I can't honestly speak on this as I never have issues capping Red Scrips each week, though I do agree it is a heavy investment for those who don't know how to ply their Craft yet. This is one of the areas that Crafting kind of gets the shaft. If we choose not to Gather then we have to find a way to make gil, requiring knowledge of the market that can only be gained through experience (AKA not fresh Crafter friendly). While Combat and Gathering need only invest their time to cap, they do not have the option of buying their Scrips either and are required to put in a minimum amount of time to cap where Crafting can put in the time beforehand to make gil and cap within 10-15 minutes after reset.

6) Generating red folklore token items requires a massive time investment by foragers. Example 30 minutes to complete 5 favors x 9 tokens = 4.5 hours of gathering a week not including time to gather the red scripts in the first place.

A massive amount of time yes, but also a MASSIVE profit, or the majority of the cost of a 2-Star should you choose to use the items. Here I have no sympathy for Gatherers, especially after the change to Favors.

8) Two star foraging gear (except accessories) is unavailable for crafting. This means crafters have nothing to sell foragers... even though we are potentially paying them massive amounts of money for the new red scrip crafting drops.

Currently Gatherers can make bank and having virtually nothing to spend it on, I agree. There is no need for the i170 Accessories or even the i180 gear for that matter, but I'm betting 3.1 gives us something to craft for them and a reason for them to want it.

Also the whole 2 star system is needlessly complicated for all the wrong reasons. There are so many idiotic UI decisions in the mess which make things complicated for the wrong reasons. We can only hold one weeks worth of red scripts... red scripts are handed in for red tokens a secondary currency WHY?!?! There are 40 different folk lore token drops (20 if you don't include HQ). Red/blue script nodes only stay up for a VERY short time. Keeping track of node pops, what slot you're supposed to unveil, the collectablity number, etc requires a day planner or a website.... WHY?!?!! All of that information should be in the UI easily available for players. Why can't my character remember Chysahl greens come from slot 6... is she really that dumb? These are all pointless decisions which make the system more cumbersome for others to learn, adding to the overall problem.

These seem to be more QoL improvements than anything. I agree with the increase to maximum held Red Scrips, trading Scrips for Tokens allows us to save a ton of Tokens for a rainy day, many more than a 2000 Red Scrip maximum would allow, and I would say keeping track of Node spawns and item locations is part of being a good Gatherer, just like remembering when and what mechanics happen in a raid or what rotation to use for a certain level recipe. Also I'd rather not have a full list of Node spawns in my timer list D:

[Alahra]

I think SE was planning for the long term with the new system

They probably were, though if the structure stays the same in the longterm, we're going to end up at roughly the same place again in 3.2, I have to imagine (unless they don't intend to reset crafter progression every tier the way they do DoW/DoM progression). For this raid cycle, at least, we'll never see the i180 DoW/DoM gear be worthwhile, as by the time the mats are readily available in such a way that they'll be affordable for the larger population, there will be plenty of other "free" gearing options that are higher item level (Esoterics, Void Ark, Alexander Normal, Exploratory Missions, etc).

If they don't reset crafting progression in 3.2, though, it'll probably mean that our scrips will be able to be put toward materials from the get-go (or at least, much sooner than they generally will be now), which will both make the new items (probably around i200 or i210) available when they can actually be useful and bring their costs down.

Unfortunately, we've still got about 4 months before 3.2, most likely, so it's going to be awhile before we have a real sense of how this is all going to shake out.

As an aside, when it comes to Quality of Life stuff, I *really* hate that the vendors for Rowena's Tokens/Collectible turn ins and the vendor for the gear and mats are on opposite sides of the main plateau in Idyllshire. Would it have killed them to put them all three behind the same counter? x.x

[Silverbane]

... I would say keeping track of Node spawns and item locations is part of being a good Gatherer, just like remembering when and what mechanics happen in a raid or what rotation to use for a certain level recipe. Also I'd rather not have a full list of Node spawns in my timer list D:

Garland Bell (http://www.garlandtools.org/bell/) has all of such information that any gatherer needs, and is filterable so you can see only what you want to see: MIN/BOT/both, any or all of Legendary/Unspoiled/Ephemeral, and more.

The only caveat is that it relies on your system's time, so make sure your system time is accurate or the Eorzea time reported by Garland Bell will be off. Garland Bell and Garland Tools Database easily justify having a monopoly on one of my monitors.

You do have to get used to how the data is presented, but it's pretty cool once you are used to it.

[Katlyna]

Garland Bell (http://www.garlandtools.org/bell/) has all of such information that any gatherer needs, and is filterable so you can see only what you want to see: MIN/BOT/both

I need to show a video of what I track and how I set it up in garlandtools. You can make your own tab with all your timers (your choice) with minimaps and select timers to ding 1 minute before ready. Its really nice. Likewise you can organize them such that visibly they're in order of how you tend to gather them. Its helped me setup a really efficient combined red/blue gathering cycle.

[Katlyna]

A massive amount of time yes, but also a MASSIVE profit, or the majority of the cost of a 2-Star should you choose to use the items. Here I have no sympathy for Gatherers, especially after the change to Favors.

I concur I don't feel terrible for gatherers right now but, the time investment is high enough that casual gathers aren't' participating which makes it more painful for us. Also I don't particular like gathering for 6-7 hours a week... it blows big green nana bear tails.

These seem to be more QoL improvements than anything.

I'm a huge QoL freak and HATE idiotic and artificial UI decisions which make things require documentation or supplemental information. Coming up with an efficient gathering path and efficient rotations should make a good gatherer. Having a detailed spreadsheet or tool setup with all your timers, node slot, collectability information, etc... should NOT define what a good gather is. But currently both sets of skills are required. And this again pushes away more gathers. Gathering should be organic and interesting ingame... not out of game in spreadsheets lol.

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All in all though this whole thing is a bloody mess which has just made me personally need to gather 90% of time in order to reach the same kind of crafting pinnacle I used to reside in. Which makes me fairly unhappy. I now have less time to level combat classes and play the other side of the game than ever, and this makes me pretty grumpy.