Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

[dragonseth07]

That argument makes little sense though. Arrow doesn't make you eat more TP per damage spent. You'll do the same amount of damage when you barrel out your TP, whether it is 30 seconds or 25 seconds, but one way you do the same damage in 25 seconds vs 30 seconds. All removing it does is make you do less damage per second.

You are correct, removing it will give you less DPS for the fight as a whole. The big thing people are dancing around is that the objectively high boost comes at the cost of less DPS during late phases. Your overall output will be higher, but it'll make you bottom out sooner, and late phases in general need higher DPS (obviously this is not a universal thing, but fights generally get more intense as they go). It's like burning the LB on an early phase when you need to save it for a big DPS check later. It may give you more DPS averaged out over the fight, but it will potentially give you less when it really matters.

[Kaurie]

You are correct, removing it will give you less DPS for the fight as a whole. The big thing people are dancing around is that the objectively high boost comes at the cost of less DPS during late phases. Your overall output will be higher, but it'll make you bottom out sooner, and late phases in general need higher DPS (obviously this is not a universal thing, but fights generally get more intense as they go). It's like burning the LB on an early phase when you need to save it for a big DPS check later. It may give you more DPS averaged out over the fight, but it will potentially give you less when it really matters.

That makes sense; however, I can't think of any current content where that actually matters. Content like Odin, or Bismark EX, there are clear DPS checks later on that you need to hit. Most current content, higher DPS upfront will have you skip phases, so it's actually better to frontload it.

[ErdrickLoto]

You just reminded me of a SephEx clear (my clear, actually) that I was doing with a DRG who revealed they had over 1,000 skill speed because they "like spamming abilities" because "it's fun." I wonder what an enhanced arrow would have done for their poor TP. Since they were already harassing me for TP song before the adds even showed up. :x

...I'd like to add the disclaimer that I don't like skill speed that much, jeez. I at least manage to use each of my GCDs. (Though I also haven't done any EX content yet, so how much that would hurt my TP bar has yet to be seen.)

[HyoMinPark]

Exactly, you get the same TP back, you don't get it back slower. So you're not sacrificing it. You're just doing less damage in the same time frame for no reason. There is no consequence. Mathematically, you are doing less GCD's in the same time, which means you are doing less damage in the same time. That means you are doing less damage per second, and stuff is taking longer to kill.

Skill speed has less benefit than CRT/DET due to the TP refresh, in that TP refresh limits how much of an increase of a DPS you will see - but it is still an increase. That is why the stat weight is still positive, and not negative, albet less than CRT/DET

I think what ErdickLoto is getting at isn't that your TP refreshes any slower, but that you will burn through it faster than it can replenish itself while in battle, resulting in a DPS loss later when you're sitting at 0 or sub-60 TP, and unable to perform any GCD skills until you get enough TP to continue on with your rotation (since the Arrow has no effect on your oGCD refresh rate, and even with a higher skill speed, you still gotta wait for them to come back before you can effectively weave them into your rotation).

A good example of a job burning TP like there's no tomorrow would probably be monk (and dragoon as well, but I'm using monk as an example here). They already require 700+ skill speed just so their rotations can flow better, and go smoothly, as well as put out optimal DPS for a monk. Sure they have access to Invigorate, but it also has a cooldown, and if they're hit with an enhanced (or even expanded) arrow, and bottom out faster than they normally would, then it does prove to be a DPS loss later on until they can Invigorate again. Because all they can do is auto-attack while at sub-50 TP until the refresh tick hits and they can perform the next action in their combo/rotation.

...I'd like to add the disclaimer that I don't like skill speed that much, jeez. I at least manage to use each of my GCDs. (Though I also haven't done any EX content yet, so how much that would hurt my TP bar has yet to be seen.)

Oh, no no. I wasn't saying that you love SkSpeed that much. XD Just that your comment (and the TP consumption/Arrow buff removal conversation in general) reminded me of that DRG I met. And how curious I would be to see what would happen to his TP under the influence of an enhanced arrow. I've honestly never seen TP drop so quickly, and I wasn't the only one who said he was being dumb for having such a stupidly high amount of skill speed. I don't think DRG needs more than 700 (not sure though since I don't play DRG that often, and when I do, just to derp around with my FC), so 1,000+ is entirely unnecessary.

But sorry if it came out that I was saying you liked high skill speed. Wasn't my intention. :x

[Kaurie]

I think what ErdickLoto is getting at isn't that your TP refreshes any slower, but that you will burn through it faster than it can replenish itself while in battle, resulting in a DPS loss later when you're sitting at 0 or sub-60 TP, and unable to perform any GCD skills until you get enough TP to continue on with your rotation (since the Arrow has no effect on your oGCD refresh rate, and even with a higher skill speed, you still gotta wait for them to come back before you can effectively weave them into your rotation).

I get that, what I am sayng is there is no "dps loss", you are just doing more DPS now and less later for an overall higher DPS. You still get your TP back at the same rate, so you can still do at least the same number of attacks, but in 99% of scenarios, you will do more attacks.

[HyoMinPark]

I get that, what I am sayng is there is no "dps loss", you are just doing more DPS now and less later for an overall higher DPS. You still get your TP back at the same rate, so you can still do at least the same number of attacks, but in 99% of scenarios, you will do more attacks.

While I can't say if the increased DPS under the influence of the Arrow would even out the DPS loss you would suffer later from TP loss, I think a lot of melee would just prefer not to run the risk. Hence why they click off the buff. Whether or not they balance out the other would probably require some testing on a striking dummy with a parser. I'm genuinely curious, so I may ask an FC mate to aid me in this experiment later.

A lot of it would probably rely on several conditions. Such as:
--Was the Arrow Enhanced, Expanded, or Extended?
--Current Skill Speed of the DPS receiving the buff.
--How long are they without TP if they bottom out later?
--Are there any party members available to help them refresh TP faster (AST with Spire, BRD/MCH with song/turret)?

Maybe for some it would balance out in the end, resulting in no overall DPS loss. Maybe some it would only positively affect DPS output. And maybe some it would be a huge DPS loss due to either high skill speed, poor TP management, lack of Invigorate, lack of party members able to help out with TP regen, etc. Would be interesting thing to test out. :3

[Kaurie]

While I can't say if the increased DPS under the influence of the Arrow would even out the DPS loss you would suffer later from TP loss, I think a lot of melee would just prefer not to run the risk. Hence why they click off the buff. Whether or not they balance out the other would probably require some testing on a striking dummy with a parser. I'm genuinely curious, so I may ask an FC mate to aid me in this experiment later.

Mathematically, it is impossible to lose out on DPS. You will gain DPS if generally you finish a fight above 0 TP. If you finish a fight at 0 TP, it's likely the Arrow will give you no net benefit or loss.

[Fluestergras]

Why would you remove free DPS? :|

Fun how you discuss for about a page without waiting for my answer
I didn't ask because I want to remove an Arrow, I just said I remember Frowny removing Arrows with a text command and I wanted to know which one it is. I want to use it to remove an AOE Royal Road quickly for the case I draw a card that I can play better in single target, for example an Ewer on myself. For myself, removing an Arrow would be just stupid. I'm a blackmage, I have infinite MP, why would I want to remove a card that doesn't give me any disadvantages? O.O

[dragonseth07]

While I can't say if the increased DPS under the influence of the Arrow would even out the DPS loss you would suffer later from TP loss, I think a lot of melee would just prefer not to run the risk. Hence why they click off the buff. Whether or not they balance out the other would probably require some testing on a striking dummy with a parser. I'm genuinely curious, so I may ask an FC mate to aid me in this experiment later.

You don't need to test it. Mathematically, it is a net gain to keep the buff, EVENTUALLY resulting in a net zero further down the line, but never negative. It just feelsbadman.jpg when you bottom out earlier.

To better visualize it, take a look at an absurd example, so the difference is more visible.

Let's assume that you had a buff that gave you enough SS to drop all of your TP in the first few moments of a fight. Then you've bottomed out immediately. The resulting DPS from that is going to start off very high and taper off. It will keep dropping over time, as the fight gets longer, but it will never drop below where it would have been without the buff. And here's why: Once both examples (buffed and unbuffed) have bottomed out, they have spent the same amount of TOTAL TP. Because regen is unaffected, they both spent the same total. Make sense? Assuming the TP was spent the same way on both, the TOTAL damage done is the same. The buffed damage is simply all front-loaded. So, both even out in the very end. However, not all fights are going to be long enough for it to even out, in which case the buff always wins.

[HyoMinPark]

Mathematically, it is impossible to lose out on DPS. You will gain DPS if generally you finish a fight above 0 TP. If you finish a fight at 0 TP, it's likely the Arrow will give you no net benefit or loss.

I would have to disagree. If you die in a fight, you lose DPS. Even if you are only down for 10 seconds, that's still 10 seconds of lost DPS. Coupled with weakness for 90 seconds after being raised, I don't think you can make up the DPS you lose from being dead (compared to if you didn't die at all).

Regardless if it is a loss or a non-loss, if melee want to click it off to prevent bottoming out earlier in a fight, that is really their choice. I don't care either way, but I main BRD, and only have TP issues if I AOE too much and fail to pay mind to my TP bar. I'm perfectly fine with an Arrow or a Balance; both are pluses for me. A person I know doesn't like Arrows at all on their DRG or MNK, and asks me explicitly not to give them any. Maybe they don't want to bottom out on TP later on. Or maybe they still think they'll lose out on DPS later from no TP. Who knows.