Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

[Mixt]

What is it with blaming the tank for wipes caused by pulling more than can be dealt with?

No, it is not the tanks fault that you did a dumb thing and pulled more mobs than what was safe, that's on you.

And then they talk about tank ego, without bothering to take a look at their own ego, with their whole "I know better because i say so!" and then screeching and throwing blame when it turns out they were wrong.

"I did a stupid thing, but i refuse to take responsibility, instead i'm gonna cuss out the tank and blame them for everything and accuse them of being a ego-tripping special snowflake if they try to argue in any way!"

Really, what is it with this "I can do no wrong, it must be the tanks fault" crowd?

Like the guy who decided it was a great idea to sprint ahead and pull everything in Ala Mhigo, then got pissed when we wiped because of that, with no regard for the fact that it was his own damned fault.

[Starvi]

Can we like not rehash the same stupid discussion every ten pages because someone in here tells a story about "you pull, you tank"
I think by now everyone knows who in here has what opinion about tanking, leading a party or setting the pace. There really is no need to come up with the same old arguments why one side is right and why the other side is wrong. You are not going to change minds in any direction so for the love of sanity, can we pls stop this?

I'm here for fun or tragic stories from DF or PF, can we pls continue with that?

[Xtrasweettea]

[...] It may seem like a jerk thing, but I never liked tanking something that an impatient DD pulls. Im not sure why it bothers me, its feels like "why am I even here?" but I cant explain the why.

TL;DR: It is from your agency being taken away and you becoming nor more than akin to an NPC.

When we group, we are not “partying” we are temporarily entering a short business agreement with you and up to X strangers. Your position within the agreement is outlined by which role you fill. When you enter a business agreement, you play to strengths to those in other roles. You do this by outsourcing your weaker strengths to them.

So:
If I am a Healer who groups up, my strength is to keep people vertical. I can initiate pulls, but I will be spending more resources to keep myself vertical than letting the tank, who is built to take hits, initiate pull. I will outsource pulling to the tank. I can DPS, but not as well as these two DDs. I will outsource some of my DPS responsibilities to them. In exchange, I will use my strength, plus adding the responsibilities I insourced by the Tank and DD to help us get to the end of this event and get our award.

This happens every group you enter. We don’t do this consciously. It is what we have been trained and condition to do over time.

So part of your insourced responsibility is to initiate pulls and tank. Since you have that responsibility, it also means you should have authority to execute that responsibility. This execution includes how you are going to do it (this doesn't mean it is your way or the highway, it means you can do what you can do within your limitations while trying to be flexible with the group). This gives you agency.

This means you also get the blame and fault for failing to execute that responsibility.

When a DD pulls for you, they are taking away some agency from you by taking away some authority. The DD decided for you how to do your job. This will upset you. You know the agreement is broken by their actions. So given them back the tanking responsibilities to them, by you not tanking, is actually within your rights.

Here's the problem. Even though DD broke the implied agreement, and took away your agency, you still kept the fault in the eyes of the party (and some people on the forums). So, you not pulling how the DD wanted, even stating you were new, your fault. You not tanking what they pulled, even though they broke agreement, your fault.

To the eyes of that DD and some people on the forums you are not a person, but an NPC. They waited 20+ minutes in queue for that DD slot and they don't want a possible 30 minute dungeon because someone new wants to be responsible and learn the job. If they want to go faster, they will just take the reigns from you, but don't stand up for yourself... just tank whatever they pull.

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

I had a weird situation where I was tanking something. I think it was St. Mocianne's Arboretum (Hard). One of the DPS kept pulling enemies ahead of where I was, so I had to go and grab them off of him. It kind of got under my skin a little bit, but I didn't die or struggle with the mob size or anything so I just didn't say anything.

By the end, though, everyone said I handled tanking pretty well, so that was nice. I just wish they let me set the pace!

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

What is it with blaming the tank for wipes caused by pulling more than can be dealt with?

No, it is not the tanks fault that you did a dumb thing and pulled more mobs than what was safe, that's on you.

And then they talk about tank ego, without bothering to take a look at their own ego, with their whole "I know better because i say so!" and then screeching and throwing blame when it turns out they were wrong.

"I did a stupid thing, but i refuse to take responsibility, instead i'm gonna cuss out the tank and blame them for everything and accuse them of being a ego-tripping special snowflake if they try to argue in any way!"

Really, what is it with this "I can do no wrong, it must be the tanks fault" crowd?

Like the guy who decided it was a great idea to sprint ahead and pull everything in Ala Mhigo, then got pissed when we wiped because of that, with no regard for the fact that it was his own damned fault.

The hilarious thing is that if this was last expac, any tank doing this would not only be defended but lauded. It was generally accepted that DPS (or to a lesser extent Healers) could expect to eat a Shirk if they didn't fall in line with the pace set by said Tank. These were dark days where everyone was expected to contribute to Tank optimization by managing their own enmity--to the point of the role being gutted into the meat shield we know today.

Now Tanks get bullied for trying to break the pre-established mold they made for themselves. This is just as bad as healers who refuse to heal beyond GCD skills (It seems the restructuring has only enabled this mindset).

As far as this 'you pull, you deal' attitude goes, if someone wants to play a role that's not theirs, then they have to accept the responsibility of that role. I'm not saying to punish accidents but if you've got someone who wants to lead the charge, to leave the beaten path--let them. Cheer them on even. Gotta break the habit somehow. (Seriously it cannot happen fast enough).

[TheForce]

Tanks are not the de facto leaders of a party. The pace can be determined by any one of the played involved in a dungeon—not just the tank. Healer can’t keep up with a large pull (due to either gear, inexperience, or just being bad)? They just dictated the pace. DPS aren’t AOEing? They just dictated the pace. This is not a tank-exclusive thing. Tanks pull simply because that’s what they’re expected to do as per their role—and they’re the most convenient when it comes to being a punching bag due to higher gear defense and mitigative cooldowns.

Parties don’t always wipe when a tank or healer dies. It’s not uncommon to see tanks and DPS handle dungeon bosses on their own after a healer dies simply because dungeons are so incredibly undertuned. Especially level-capped dungeons.

That is incorrect, Tanks are indeed the de facto leaders of parties. They are the only ones capable of holding aggro and not being slaughtered, so therefore they are in charge of aggro. By being in charge of aggro, they are in charge of enemies encountered, and by being in charge of enemies encountered, they are in charge of the pace. A healer can give a suggestion to the Tank, yes, about how much to pull, but at the end of the day, it's up to the Tank because they're the ones actually doing it. I'm not sure why you seem so adamant on giving healers control over Tanks...but we can have that discussion a different day. Also, the only reason a party wouldn't wipe if a Tank is if the adds were almost dead, so honestly that wasn't the best example because it's not really proving anything. If the group rushes into a mob at full health without the Tank, it will be a massacre.

[Mavrias]

That is incorrect, Tanks are indeed the de facto leaders of parties. They are the only ones capable of holding aggro and not being slaughtered, so therefore they are in charge of aggro. By being in charge of aggro, they are in charge of enemies encountered, and by being in charge of enemies encountered, they are in charge of the pace. A healer can give a suggestion to the Tank, yes, about how much to pull, but at the end of the day, it's up to the Tank because they're the ones actually doing it. I'm not sure why you seem so adamant on giving healers control over Tanks...but we can have that discussion a different day. Also, the only reason a party wouldn't wipe if a Tank is if the adds were almost dead, so honestly that wasn't the best example because it's not really proving anything. If the group rushes into a mob at full health without the Tank, it will be a massacre.

Any single pull trash pack in dungeons can be killed with out the tank. Ditto for any bosses. Dungeon boss tank busters don't hit hard or frequently enough that they require a tank to eat them. Shield whoevers tanking for the hit and they'll be golden.

Tanks that pull small aren't nearly as vital as you think.

[Callinon]

Any single pull trash pack in dungeons can be killed with out the tank. Ditto for any bosses.

Been hitting the good shit today I see.

Do you have anything that can back that up? And I don't mean like.. Sastasha where the bosses really just aren't. Try that in oh, let's say The Twinning and let's see how it goes.

[Lynesse]

Been hitting the good shit today I see.

Do you have anything that can back that up? And I don't mean like.. Sastasha where the bosses really just aren't. Try that in oh, let's say The Twinning and let's see how it goes.

I don't want to contradict you or argue, because you're pointing out a fallacy that deserves it.

But there are a lot of leveling dungeons where this can be easy to do. The Vault, Sirensong Sea, Bardam's Mettle. Even Ghimlyt Dark.

Once in Bardam's Mettle, our tank left instantly once he saw what he queued into. So, me, the healer, and a DRG went through the dungeon normally, doing single pulls, up to the first boss. I tanked the first boss as an RDM. The healer died, and the DRG tanked it while I healed her through it the rest of the way. Edit: I should point out that we got a tank after the boss, and it was a big relief for me.

This is a thing, but you're right to point out that it's not so much a thing that it renders tanks obsolete.

[Mavrias]

Been hitting the good shit today I see.

Do you have anything that can back that up? And I don't mean like.. Sastasha where the bosses really just aren't. Try that in oh, let's say The Twinning and let's see how it goes.

lol i have. did literally a few days ago with friends. we accidentally queued 3 dps 1 healer for expert roulette. surprise surprise we cleared Grand Cosmos in about 20 minutes with no deaths. just couldn't wall to wall.