Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

[RokkuEkkusu]

~ d a r k k n i g h t s a r e p a p e r ~

I wonder what that is supposed to mean or what are you trying to imply?

Bad tanks are paper regardless of class.

That I agree Mighty one.

[tinythinker]

Bad tanks are paper regardless of class.

I am not in much of a position to call other players bad. Very hypocritical. I am still working my way to "average" healer for non-end game/regular roulettes.

It was simply an observation that even when they are well-geared and seemingly having experience, the DRKs I encounter in DF are much more likely to have trouble handling trash packs than either of the other tank classes (and even seem to get hit for more in some boss fights). A pretty good player in an FC I was in agreed that was a risk with certain types of players running DRK in particular dungeons; but when he tried to show me what an experienced and well-geared DRK looked like... he felt to me like he was on the paper-side, though not as bad. So it makes me wonder, "What's the difference?"

I freely admit that I know very little about FFXIV tanking in general or DRK in particular, so maybe I need to adjust to their timing/cool-downs/strategy. It could all just be me. But it makes me nervous every time I see the DRK icon in DF and they start a giant pull. When they handle it well I feel like breaking out the cheer emote out of relief. My earlier post is what goes through my head when 3 seconds into the part right after trash is gathered when I have to use Benediction right after my first Holy even though Benison and Regen were already applied.

Is there a reason why it might appear to a mediocre healer that DRKs seem to have a much higher rate/degree of squishiness? Even some the better ones?

[TheMightyMollusk]

Dark knights don't get their best mitigation tool, The Blackest Knight, until level 70. They also have the worst self-healing of the three tanks. Abyssal Drain comes late and is only useful in larger pulls: Souleater heals very little and only while in Grit, which many tanks turn off on boss fights; and Sole Survivor has a delay before it heals, with a cooldown. To top it off, their invuln is either useless (if they don't take enough damage to break it) or kills them (if not healed to full before Walking Dead ends; which, as stated above, they cannot do themselves). Basically, DRK has a number of balance issues compared to the other tanks.

Alternately, you could just be having terrible luck with bad tanks. I had a lot of that while leveling my healing jobs. Nobody should be wearing Ironworks gear in Bardam's Mettle......

[jcfoster11]

I've been farming o8n lately for glamour and weapons for alt jobs, and my most recent run .... well, I just got PLD to 70 myself, but even so, I'm pretty certain this isn't what the damage distribution is supposed to look like:



So why did the PLD even have the boss? He was in sword when he loaded in, so I went defiance and started a countdown, which he apparently was having none of. The one bright spot was that since he stayed in shield for the entire fight, one voke-shirk from me meant not even our 6k SAM would get in my rear-view mirror, let alone his.

Also:

Nobody should be wearing Ironworks gear in Bardam's Mettle......

As a tank main, this makes me want to apologize on their behalf. /comfort

[kikix12]

Is there a reason why it might appear to a mediocre healer that DRKs seem to have a much higher rate/degree of squishiness? Even some the better ones?

It's mostly because of the difference in players, really. As someone that have leveled all three tanks and all three healers to lvl70, I can tell you that equally geared and skilled Dark Knight does not feel more "paper-like" than a Warrior (though, yes, does feel more fragile than a Paladin). However, there are more players that play Dark Knight for the cool factor than for the tank factor than is the case for Paladins and Warriors.

Dark Knights have a tank stance that decreases all damage by 20% as long as it is on, same as Paladins, while Warriors tank stance increases their HP and healing received by 20%, with a gauge-based skill that gives them few seconds of 20% reduction that they can use frequently. So a Dark Knight that focuses on tanking will receive less damage than a Warrior from that alone. But their tanking cooldowns...as TheMightyMollusk said, leave a thing to be desired.

On that note however, as far as I know, Living Dead doesn't care about being healed to full. The tank is saved if healed by an amount equal to their full HP, whether that is to full at once or without ever getting capped doesn't matter. So long as total HP healed during the debuff is equal or greater to the person max HP it will be cured.

[Yimiko]

I've noticed that when I join a roulette as BLM, even on an alt, the tank will generally not pull more than 3 things at a time unless they cannot help it because it's a group of 4+. However, if I am anything that is not a BLM and the other dps IS a BLM, the tank will pull everything, and that other BLM will just cast fire 4 all day long even if there are like 10+ things pulled.

[Sylvina]

It's mostly because of the difference in players, really. As someone that have leveled all three tanks and all three healers to lvl70, I can tell you that equally geared and skilled Dark Knight does not feel more "paper-like" than a Warrior (though, yes, does feel more fragile than a Paladin). However, there are more players that play Dark Knight for the cool factor than for the tank factor than is the case for Paladins and Warriors.

Dark Knights have a tank stance that decreases all damage by 20% as long as it is on, same as Paladins, while Warriors tank stance increases their HP and healing received by 20%, with a gauge-based skill that gives them few seconds of 20% reduction that they can use frequently. So a Dark Knight that focuses on tanking will receive less damage than a Warrior from that alone. But their tanking cooldowns...as TheMightyMollusk said, leave a thing to be desired.

On that note however, as far as I know, Living Dead doesn't care about being healed to full. The tank is saved if healed by an amount equal to their full HP, whether that is to full at once or without ever getting capped doesn't matter. So long as total HP healed during the debuff is equal or greater to the person max HP it will be cured.

I have DRK at literally one item level below WAR yet comparing them both without cds or tank stance, DRK feels a lot more squishy for some reason.

[Dirwen]

I have DRK at literally one item level below WAR yet comparing them both without cds or tank stance, DRK feels a lot more squishy for some reason.

DRK feels kinda squishy for me only because they suck on self healing compared to PLD/WAR but that is my personal experience leveling all three. PLD is boring but feels the safest to play. WAR is easy and fun to play and does good DPS when needed so not surprised it's popular in endgame. DRK sucks to play but the cool factor is why I even bother.

[RokkuEkkusu]

Just had a rather interesting Byakko EX farm party as my Mikeru character. It was a no-stack farm party.

I was Paladin for this party. My co-tank was Warrior. Fight went smoothly until the co-tank took 3 stacks and was knocked out during the split. Needless to say, the group wiped. The co-tank bailed. I left the party too a minute later.

However, the same party was on Party Finder. I decided to give it one last chance to see if the tank that took the 3 vuln stacks was indeed the weak link.

I changed to Warrior and rejoined the party. The rest of the members doubted my intentions, but I said I wanted to rejoin as Warrior and minimize chances of dupes for the upcoming co-tank.

A Dark Knight joined. So we all did our thing, but the real interesting thing here is that we beat Byakko before Hakutei even started casting the second Roar of Thunder where the Tank LB3 would normally be used. I was intrigued. The Dark Knight that joined got the mount fife. Despite one knock out in the next two fights (healer or dps), we still beat Byakko before the Tank LB3 part came up.

Three or four battles later, I got the fife as Mikeru. So both the tanks in the party got the mount.

I appreciate all of the effort and DPS that went into these runs though. I didn't expect doing this in a pug. Thanks for the victorious runs.

[Gemina]

Is there a reason why it might appear to a mediocre healer that DRKs seem to have a much higher rate/degree of squishiness? Even some the better ones?

It's inexperience I assure you, and applies to all tanks. DRKs are just really common. A DRK who knows what he's doing isn't going to give you a whole lot of trouble in dungeons. I don't play PLD or WAR, so I can't compare their abilities firsthand, but I can tell you that DRK is a solid tank. They won't woo you with defensive capabilities like a PLD, but they hold their own against a large trash pull. Easily.

Most tanks feel pressured to do big pulls. None of them should be doing it though if they are under-geared and do not know the instance, or how to cycle their CDs. This just leads to wipes. Many try to run before they've learned to walk, and there just isn't much of a middle ground. But a good DRK will gauge the strength of the party including your ability to heal. Don't be surprised if they use Living Dead on you though. If they use it pre-emptively consider it a big compliment.