But...I...I don't wanna DPS, I'm a healer...

[braneri1]

"defeatist mindset"

I'm done, bye.

There have been countless dozens of very helpful and detailed posts about this topic and yet they were ignored by him. It's not as if putting out damage as a healer is rocket science. All it takes is a good skill setup and practice, maybe a few targeting filters as well if you're on console like me.

[braneri1]

I thought that this sentence is used mainly by dps Netflixers ^^

Here is the problem. Healers and tanks are right now more accountable than dps players. So until we fix this (vote for parsers!) then you can't really talk about double standards here. Maybe if healers saw how much dps they can do, and that they sometimes can outdps even dps classes, there would be more of them willing to dps.

It's used by people in all roles but that wasn't my point. It is a double standard in the context of those who support ignoring half your skills and overall being highly mediocre doing the bare minimum, while expecting other roles to put out 100% effort. And then crying about it when someone dares to speak up.

I agree on what you've said but I wasn't addressing the overall meta like you are. :P Everyone should have some level of accountability and this needs to be more equal. Of course this doesn't require expecting perfection of everyone at all times (the most common counter argument for those who oppose parsers which is nothing but a strawman), but there is a huge huge difference between say, a mnk doing everything they can but missing a few positional bonuses or timing buffs a little off, and one who refuses to use fists of fire or any damage buff at all and refuses to use their dots or even attempt to do positional attacks correctly.

[Archaell]

...

What is the bare minimum? I would say that bare minimum is healing only tank and unavoidable damage. So healers already do more than minimum

Healers can heal and dps, so let me ask you a question. If you had to put healing vs dpsing into percentage based scale, how much is each? Do you consider it be 50:50. Or do you consider it something like 75:25? Because if you want to reach agreement between dpsing and not-dpsing side, you need to first decide where the ratio is.

Also keep in mind, that if dps player gets tunnel visioned they put themself in danger (raise pls) while chomping off healers mana and swiftcast (who cares, right?). On the other hand when healer gets tunnel visioned while dpsing - it causes wipe. There is a huge difference in responsibility. Healer who refuses to dps is in no way same as dps who refuses to use dots. About the positionals... okay that's interesting point. I would say that if the monk can do everything else perfectly while missing the positionals it isn't as big issue as it might seem (they still hit some while standing in one spot) - as long as they do their part in the fight of course. If you don't use positionals, have crappy rotation and don't use dots that's a big no-no.

[braneri1]

What is the bare minimum? I would say that bare minimum is healing only tank and unavoidable damage. So healers already do more than minimum

Healers can heal and dps, so let me ask you a question. If you had to put healing vs dpsing into percentage based scale, how much is each? Do you consider it be 50:50. Or do you consider it something like 75:25? Because if you want to reach agreement between dpsing and not-dpsing side, you need to first decide where the ratio is.

Also keep in mind, that if dps player gets tunnel visioned they put themself in danger (raise pls) while chomping off healers mana and swiftcast (who cares, right?). On the other hand when healer gets tunnel visioned while dpsing - it causes wipe. There is a huge difference in responsibility. Healer who refuses to dps is in no way same as dps who refuses to use dots. About the positionals... okay that's interesting point. I would say that if the monk can do everything else perfectly while missing the positionals it isn't as big issue as it might seem (they still hit some while standing in one spot) - as long as they do their part in the fight of course. If you don't use positionals, have crappy rotation and don't use dots that's a big no-no.

Lol again, you're addressing points I'm not even making. :P Sorry if I have not phrased things very well.

I personally dps about 70% of the time as whm/ast and I'd say 80-100% of the time as sch (higher uptime being on bosses of course, I make eos work for her money :P). I enjoy pushing myself but even if I were to lower my time spent a bit and stick to the basics of dpsing I'd still be putting out pretty close to my full output. Really the only times I have to heal more than that are either in the harder raids or if the tank is pulling more than their gear and skill can handle.

My comment regarding the example of mnk performance was not regarding responsibility, it was regarding the topic of parsers to counter the strawman anti-parser people use so often. The point was that there is a big difference between someone putting in a solid but not perfect effort and someone cruising through the instance munching on Doritos and watching stuff on Netflix doing considerably less dps than was possible at level 50 as a level 60 cause they'll still clear the dungeon anyways and have no respect for the other players in the group.

[Archaell]

It is not much about phrasing as much about the point of view. I don't believe it is possible to discuss dpsing vs not dpsing as healer in vacuum. There are many additional factors that need to be considered.

So what you are saying is that healers should be accountable for doing dps and using dps abilities? That non-dpsing healer is playing the job poorly?

What about using and not using cleric stance. There is a huge difference in dps with it and without it. Yet it is just one skill. One that makes dpsing worth it or almost waste of time. One that kills your party members or not.

What do you think about dpsing healer who uses all the skills in cleric stance, but lets dps members die in avoidable aoes? Or about dpsing healer who is dpsing almost full-time but kills the tank and dps players?

Edit:

One more question. Do you expect the healer to cover for mistakes of other party members? Because if you expect them to be accountable for dpsing, then healing avoidable damage is no longer part of the job imo.

[braneri1]

Yes, I would absolutely say that a healer who doesn't even attempt to put out any dps in the vast majority of content in this game is playing their job poorly. Just as I would say about anyone who is ignoring a bunch of their skills regardless of role. If the healer is fresh and doesn't yet feel comfortable doing so (new to the instance and doesn't know where the damage spikes are or just a new player overall in low level content) that's understandable but with time and practice anyone can do it just fine. It's one thing to be new, adjusting to the learning curve and improving as you go, and an entirely different thing to be purposely stagnant, refusing to use the tools this game gives us in the name of convenience so you can pay more attention to your second screen. Attitude is key.

I'm not sure why you are asking me about Cleric Stance use since that should be a given to turn on before putting out damage and off before going back to healing. Damage skills without Cleric Stance are pitiful just as heals with it are. Even if someone derps it's very fast to switch out, throw them a regen, and switch back.

I would expect healers to cover for the mistakes of others within reason. If someone is repeatedly being dumb getting themselves killed over and over even after being told to be more careful then they can eat all the dirt in the world for all I care. I won't burn all my mp on a deadweight in the middle of a fight. And if they are deliberately standing in avoidable stuff and trolling us they will get a kick. Non-fatal occurrences such as getting hit with aoe that you tried to avoid but were just on the very edge of (which latency can also affect) I just heal quickly and move on. I would be doing the same sort of thing to cover others' mistakes with any role so long as they are not a recurring problem and causing multiple wipes. For example if I'm tanking and someone accidentally gets proximity aggro on something I haven't pulled (like mobs on a patrol route) then I will grab it and adjust as needed, but if they are deliberately running way away from me or pulling groups with skills after I tell them not to (I don't main tanking but I'm more than comfortable enough with them all to manage large pulls without anyone pulling for me, it just makes things messier.) then I will gladly let them die and give them the boot.

[Iris_BP]

Woah, discussion is heating up!
I just don't understand why people freaking out about healers dpsing. There is plenty of content where pretty much all you do is heal, even when you want to dps. Most of middle level dungeons are run without dpsing and really Noone expects dps from a healer on them, the ONLY content where healers have to dps are end game dungeons (two dungeons,omg) that people just want to run faster because of 1xx run. And because they are so ridiculously easy you would have to just stand around for most of the time. And you're expected to dps on ex primal (to a lesser extent actually) and AS. That's it... Everywhere else you can just be a healer without being "tryhards".

P.S. If SE will actually "fix" this "problem" the healer role will be completely ruined for me in this game. So I guess there are two camps of healers afterall

[Astral145]

I really think that everyone's opinion on this matter is exactly that an "OPINION":P.... Everyone can sit and argue their OPINIONS till they are blue in the face but why bother? The fact is I don't see caster dps's stop pew pewing and start healing everyone o.O? seriously, that would be crazy right maybe for some of us? To a lot of people dpsing as a healer is just as crazy as a dps trying to heal well maybe not as crazy but you get the point.

My point is if the healer doesn't want to dps then let it go.... there could be several reasons for this like maybe the player doesn't feel comfortable with the tank or group.... or maybe the healer had one to many shots of tequila and is trying to figure out which bar among 16 bars is the tanks in a 4 player dungeon.... No matter what the reason is if the healer doesn't want to pew pew then let it go, bc if the healer for some reason gets dps tunnel vision and lets the tank die well that could be an issue that could very well lead to the whole group kissing the ground. Then everyone would have to trek all the way back to where they carved out there initials in the ground.

If you like healing and pew pewing then coodos to you but don't expect extra cookies at the end with a vote... reason being is that the tank did his job by rotating cd's and keeping that smooth flow going. Seriously if I see any healer spending more time dpsing than healing then I know the tank is doing good. However if I see the healer going crazy with healing and the tank is being stupid then guess who will be getting the extra cookies at the end...

Healer dps doesn't impress me much.... what impresses me is when I see a healer bring the whole group back to 3/4 to full health after the whole group just got thrown into a wall of aoes while the tank is taking on huge damage..... Now that impresses me.... Anyway that's my OPINION.... :P

[DarkerOrange]

There is plenty of content where pretty much all you do is heal, even when you want to dps.

No, no there really isn't, especially if you are a SCH. Eos can solo heal almost anything sub 50 (with 40+ requiring a few heals from you every now and then). Hell, even savage has alot of time for both healers to be in cleric stance.

Ofcourse you are welcome to overheal or sit on your arse doing nothing, but please don't try and pull this 'special snowflake' rubbish. You are not playing as well as you could be, end of.

[Izularia]

I used to play a healer in every other MMORPG I have played before. So, it was natural for me to play a healer in FFXIV as well and started as a Conjurer back then. Well, people started yelling at me for not doing any DPS... when the only thing I wanted to do was to heal. I did not understand why people were angy and so I decided to give up my healing role for a full DPS class.

A few weeks ago, I had the feeling I could give healing another shot and went with Astrologian. I felt like it was way easier to find a good combination of healing and DPSing than it was when I started in January.
Why is it like that? I know the game now, I know when it's ok to stop healing and when there's no risk of letting the tank die.
I did not know anything about it when I played all these dungeons the first time (as a Conjurer/Whitemage). The only thing I could think of was healing, that's it, I was insecure and afraid of making mistakes.

So, what is it what I want to say?
If you don't feel like dpsing as a healer, don't do it. It's not neccessary in any normal dungeon. But if you want to, go ahead, there's no problem with doing that
I don't know how it is in raids and stuff, I'm no raider and never will be, so I can only talk about "normal" content.