But...I...I don't wanna DPS, I'm a healer...

[braneri1]

The golden age of tank and healer only groups. Yay \o/

Seriously... First worry about dps players whose job is to do dps and yet quite often they do less damage than tanks and healers. Then we can worry about healers who refuse to dps. I know it is easy to think that the healer is responsible for slow dungeons , but as it is right now your average healer is still putting in more effort than your average dps player, so the blame is totally missing the correct target.

If everybody tried to contribute as much as possible that would be blissful.

Yes absolutely dps have more of an effect on that, I was never blaming healers who don't dps for slow runs. My point is that the line of thought people use to say healers should not dps is extremely flawed and a double standard they use to avoid any sort of accountability. It's an excuse to deliberately ignore a great deal of your skill set while expecting others to put out high levels of performance. They think they should have the right to be carried and only heal even when the vast, vast majority of this game requires so little healing it's pathetic. "As long as the content is cleared then who cares?" is the worst attitude to have and that is the reason why I listed some examples of what applying their double standard in a fair way across the board would amount to, which is made even stronger given the high simplicity of many of them (fists of fire for example, one button you press once and you never have to touch it again for an entire instance, which makes up a lot of your damage potential...and yet I come across people who literally refuse to use it even after being asked multiple times and multiple pulls later, as I give people a chance if they just didn't realize it themselves at first; I have even forgotten a few times myself and would be glad for the reminder).

you mean like him?

He already has his mind made up, this is extremely obvious due to his defeatist mindset displayed through his posts here. All he was looking for is an echo chamber.

Oh, so they really managed to ruin the game for someone, because you know, efficiency comes before fun and all that crap.

This is assuming that playing in an efficient manner is inherently opposed to having fun. Great logic there.

"Quit being such a tryhard waaaaah"

[Archaell]

...

Here is the thing. Every cleric stance CD puts you in a vulnerable position. During this time situations can happen that lead to failing your main priority - healing. It's pressure that not every healer can handle.

Imo dpsing as healer is better than not dpsing... but! You need to reach certain level of skill and confidence.

It is also important to think about this in context. When mobs die fast it is easier to heal and dps. This isn't always the case tho. Right now many dps players do job so poor it is hard to believe it. When mobs and bosses die at snail pace it is bloody hard to keep your MP up or to heal through increasing dmg. This creates the situation where healers think that they are barely able to heal and it also makes dpsing out of question... which is a little paradox, because if you dps, things die faster and your role gets easier. Yet again you need to reach certain level of skill and confidence.

"As long as the content is cleared then who cares?"

I thought that this sentence is used mainly by dps Netflixers ^^

Here is the problem. Healers and tanks are right now more accountable than dps players. So until we fix this (vote for parsers!) then you can't really talk about double standards here. Maybe if healers saw how much dps they can do, and that they sometimes can outdps even dps classes, there would be more of them willing to dps.

[braneri1]

I thought that this sentence is used mainly by dps Netflixers ^^

Here is the problem. Healers and tanks are right now more accountable than dps players. So until we fix this (vote for parsers!) then you can't really talk about double standards here. Maybe if healers saw how much dps they can do, and that they sometimes can outdps even dps classes, there would be more of them willing to dps.

It's used by people in all roles but that wasn't my point. It is a double standard in the context of those who support ignoring half your skills and overall being highly mediocre doing the bare minimum, while expecting other roles to put out 100% effort. And then crying about it when someone dares to speak up.

I agree on what you've said but I wasn't addressing the overall meta like you are. :P Everyone should have some level of accountability and this needs to be more equal. Of course this doesn't require expecting perfection of everyone at all times (the most common counter argument for those who oppose parsers which is nothing but a strawman), but there is a huge huge difference between say, a mnk doing everything they can but missing a few positional bonuses or timing buffs a little off, and one who refuses to use fists of fire or any damage buff at all and refuses to use their dots or even attempt to do positional attacks correctly.

[Archaell]

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What is the bare minimum? I would say that bare minimum is healing only tank and unavoidable damage. So healers already do more than minimum

Healers can heal and dps, so let me ask you a question. If you had to put healing vs dpsing into percentage based scale, how much is each? Do you consider it be 50:50. Or do you consider it something like 75:25? Because if you want to reach agreement between dpsing and not-dpsing side, you need to first decide where the ratio is.

Also keep in mind, that if dps player gets tunnel visioned they put themself in danger (raise pls) while chomping off healers mana and swiftcast (who cares, right?). On the other hand when healer gets tunnel visioned while dpsing - it causes wipe. There is a huge difference in responsibility. Healer who refuses to dps is in no way same as dps who refuses to use dots. About the positionals... okay that's interesting point. I would say that if the monk can do everything else perfectly while missing the positionals it isn't as big issue as it might seem (they still hit some while standing in one spot) - as long as they do their part in the fight of course. If you don't use positionals, have crappy rotation and don't use dots that's a big no-no.

[braneri1]

What is the bare minimum? I would say that bare minimum is healing only tank and unavoidable damage. So healers already do more than minimum

Healers can heal and dps, so let me ask you a question. If you had to put healing vs dpsing into percentage based scale, how much is each? Do you consider it be 50:50. Or do you consider it something like 75:25? Because if you want to reach agreement between dpsing and not-dpsing side, you need to first decide where the ratio is.

Also keep in mind, that if dps player gets tunnel visioned they put themself in danger (raise pls) while chomping off healers mana and swiftcast (who cares, right?). On the other hand when healer gets tunnel visioned while dpsing - it causes wipe. There is a huge difference in responsibility. Healer who refuses to dps is in no way same as dps who refuses to use dots. About the positionals... okay that's interesting point. I would say that if the monk can do everything else perfectly while missing the positionals it isn't as big issue as it might seem (they still hit some while standing in one spot) - as long as they do their part in the fight of course. If you don't use positionals, have crappy rotation and don't use dots that's a big no-no.

Lol again, you're addressing points I'm not even making. :P Sorry if I have not phrased things very well.

I personally dps about 70% of the time as whm/ast and I'd say 80-100% of the time as sch (higher uptime being on bosses of course, I make eos work for her money :P). I enjoy pushing myself but even if I were to lower my time spent a bit and stick to the basics of dpsing I'd still be putting out pretty close to my full output. Really the only times I have to heal more than that are either in the harder raids or if the tank is pulling more than their gear and skill can handle.

My comment regarding the example of mnk performance was not regarding responsibility, it was regarding the topic of parsers to counter the strawman anti-parser people use so often. The point was that there is a big difference between someone putting in a solid but not perfect effort and someone cruising through the instance munching on Doritos and watching stuff on Netflix doing considerably less dps than was possible at level 50 as a level 60 cause they'll still clear the dungeon anyways and have no respect for the other players in the group.