The issue nobody wants to address

[Ryel]

I very clearly did not mention end-game content, and the parallel I drew was explicitly 4-man content. I feel you miseed the point. You mentioned the Demon Wall in AK, which I've mentioned in such discussions before also. I said that as long as players were capable of completing content, preferrably without a wipe, doing damage agequate to complete the content, they were meeting the goals, targets or expectations implicit in the content itself.

If you're going to accuse someone of missing the point, please be sure to read the entire post as i specifically adressed both endgame and 4-man content multiple times.

like here:

Whenever players talk about adding these features what is stated above is what they're referring to, nobody really cares what happens in 4-man content usually, unless there is a DPS check involved (see: Demon wall on release.) Or the discrepancy between two players is so large that it might as well be just one player doing all of the work. However they do care when it comes to something like Bismark Ex, or Savage Alexander, I once again welcome you to take a stroll over to youtube to find out why.

The discrepancy part is the big one, meeting the goal is one thing. But how you do so is another.

Let me be clear, I am not referring to end-game content.

The point is that bringing the mentallity and tools of competitive running to fun runners doesn't enhance them, it either alienates them, or possibly turns them into competitive runners with more limited capability to perform. Whatever happens, making fun runners conform to competitive running mentallity and tool use, fundamentally changes the fun run into pseudo competitive running, which isn't what the fun runners wanted or else they'd already be doing it.

Requests for in-game parsing tools and demands for faster runs with the clear corollary being players are bad for not doing these things, are - imho - simply leading toa greater divide between players.

In the end, with regard to parsers and speedof completing a run, I stand by the comparison I drew against fun funners and competitive runners running 4-man relay races.

Which i addressed here:

And as said before, If tanks and healers can have their performance be so transparent in everything they do ranging from 4-man content to endgame, why are DPS not subject to the same accountability?

You make the comparison to ending up with fun runners in 4-mans, but i promise you the fun running tank that can't hold hate or doesn't mitigate damage, or the fun running healer that doesn't heal party members will very quickly find themselves warming the bench.

please read the entire post.

[Kosmos992k]

**snip**

I did read your post, as I read your reply. I still think you are not seeing what I am saying at all, or simply don't want to see it because it conflicts with your point of view. It doesn't matter though, since we are clearly talking past each other. You appear to me to be saying that this topic/discussion isn't about regular content, but rather end-game and hard content. I'm making a more general point about the use of tools such as parsers and how that may impact different parts of the community.

From the OP;

Let's face it, there is an issue with this game's community somehow subconsciously or even conciously being against faster dungeon runs, playing your class more efficiently, or even just playing well period.

**snip**
I personally don't mind considering I can form my own groups but I question the mentality of the players who oppose any sort of tool (parsers) or even the usage of str accessories on a tank simply because of unknown reasons? Why be against a faster run explain to me please.

I think the fact that this mentality is so rampant is an issue and further incentives should be given to encourage the community to put in more effort into how they play

That's the context I am posting in.

[Ryel]

I did read your post, as I read your reply. I still think you are not seeing what I am saying at all, or simply don't want to see it because it conflicts with your point of view. It doesn't matter though, since we are clearly talking past each other. You appear to me to be saying that this topic/discussion isn't about regular content, but rather end-game and hard content. I'm making a more general point about the use of tools such as parsers and how that may impact different parts of the community.

Actually I've spoken about 4-man content multiple times, even quoted it for you. Just because i mentioned endgame as well it doesn't make my post entirely about endgame as much as you would like to see it as such.

So let me make it as clear as i can.

As far as dungeons are concerned a metric of performance does still apply, It just matters less so.

Having a metric of measurement in 4 man content is still beneficial as I've mentioned before. I specifically brought up that in 4 man content, regardless of how fast you do or don't want the run to be completed the level of play of a tank or a healer is still exposed for the party to see, which compared to a DPS they currently have no measure of accountability.

Why is this?

We as a playerbase seem to have zero issues with giving a tank or a healer flack for either not keeping aggro, staying alive, or keeping the party alive, yet when it comes to DPS the answer seems to be "well as long as the run is completed who cares?" because there are no incentives to encourage more players to become proficient at their jobs.

This eventually does bleed over to trial content when things like Bismark normal and Story Ravana aren't being cleared, and then eventually endgame when these same players try to join Bismark Ex parties and don't know how to play their jobs.

This is where i bring up the point of MMO history in regards to performance assessment tools and player harassment in low man content. Plenty of games that have used them over the past decade usually don't run into issues unless instances are taking far longer than they should be, something that happens fairly commonly in this game. More often than not this isn't a result of malice but simply the fact that players have no idea how well they are or aren't performing and by extension the game gives them no reason or way to actually improve.

You keep bringing up this point of players who are more "competitive" with their performance running the risk of running into those who aren't and just dealing with it when it comes to the speed of dungeon completion, but that argument once again only applies to DPS because we as a community have no issues with kicking a tank or a healer who obviously isn't pulling their weight.

Just because the bar is far, far lower in 4 man content when it comes to performance versus end game content, doesn't mean the bar doesn't exist.

EDIT: Once again concerning impact, over a decades worth and dozens of worldwide MMOs have shown that the impact on player harassment is negligible because players harass each other anyway. Nobody is going to go parse Nazi on the majority of players in a 4 man dungeon, but they might say something if a BRD is doing 1/4th the damage of a healer.

[Whiteroom]

I wonder, if as healer or tank, I let the group die a few times, because you know, thats how my playstyle works(I pay my own sub,right), how annoyed would any of those, "dps play how they like" players get.

[SooChe]

I wonder, if as healer or tank, I let the group die a few times, because you know, thats how my playstyle works(I pay my own sub,right), how annoyed would any of those, "dps play how they like" players get.

Try it. I've tried it multiple times and it never fails to amuse me.

[Whiteroom]

Try it. I've tried it multiple times and it never fails to amuse me.

I'm sure you don't get a lot of "Well, you pay your sub, so its ok, you do your thing. As long as we clear before the timer ends, we're happy!"

[Welsper59]

I wonder, if as healer or tank, I let the group die a few times, because you know, thats how my playstyle works(I pay my own sub,right), how annoyed would any of those, "dps play how they like" players get.

I'd say it's a lot different, though equal in theory lol. Unless the bad DPS are leading to wipes, it's not really on-par with intentionally letting your group die and start over. That's far more along the lines to griefing than some DPS (un)intentionally making it longer, without causing a reset of a fight to occur. Bad DPS will eventually get you there without having to start over because of wipes, exceptions being DPS checks. It's not an equal situation between the two (three if including tanks), despite what people want to think of it as.

Tanks and healers have more responsibility by a default. That is, unless each and every fight in the game, including trash pulls, involves a situation where each DPS is held accountable or else they wipe the entire group, similar to a bad healer or tank. Maybe something happens to each party member and they are separated or incapacitated, so each DPS has to do X amount of damage quickly or it's a wipe. The frustration and anger by the player base would be HEAVEN to sadists like myself. Exponentially so, at least for a good while, than simply letting your group die a few times. Oh please let that accountability be a thing!

Edit: Can't help but think about the crying to result from that. Not just the bads crying, but even the people who wanted equal accountability. Being unable to use DF to clear daily roulette as reliably as it is now because groups can't even clear trash. It's so good from my own entertainment perspective lol. I don't really run stuff very much, so it'd hardly affect me. 24-man raid ease would be, probably, the most unsuccessfully cleared content lol. Unfortunately, that'd probably only be a huge deal during the first few months, as any remaining players would have probably adjusted or already been good enough to do these things.

[OPneedNerfs]

The only question to ask is, if the other 3/7 people in the party performed at your level, would the content still be cleared?

[Laraul]

Let's face it, there is an issue with this game's community somehow subconsciously or even conciously being against faster dungeon runs, playing your class more efficiently, or even just playing well period.

Sounds like the talkings of cranky old man..."Kids today are too damn spoiled and don't respect their elders! And what happened work ethic? Not anymore! No one cares about quality or craftsmanship! It's all about cranking out as much crap as possible today! And don't get me started on what passes for entertainment these days! All filth and garbage on TV! Give me Andy Griffith any day of the week!"

You for all that too I bet eh?

[Elazu]

Having a metric of measurement in 4 man content is still beneficial as I've mentioned before. I specifically brought up that in 4 man content, regardless of how fast you do or don't want the run to be completed the level of play of a tank or a healer is still exposed for the party to see, which compared to a DPS they currently have no measure of accountability.

Why is this?

This question has been asked multiple times in multiple threads, but the anti-parser crowd always ignores it.