Some speculations about Ysale (possible spoilers if you haven't completed HW)

[Elladie]

Can't say for sure if Echo awakening is related to a specific age or time of life. The Warrior of Light can be inferred to be in his/her early to mid twenties at the start of 2.0, so it's probably not something that first manifests during puberty, or at least has no specific stage of life it first manifests itself in. (I don't see why this is consequential anyway.)

I wonder what sets it off then ... In our case, it was finding the first crystal (I think). Or a similar 'crucial' event if you played 1.x. What did Ysayle experience that awakened the Echo? I mean, I know we don't know and therefore just have to speculate but - as you've probably gathered - I do love to speculate.

Anyway, about Dravanian attitudes to men and war ... The old ones, like Midgardsormr and Nidhogg, are very old, and most of their experiences with men have led them to conclude that conflict is men's natural bent.

In the scene with Tiamat at the end of HW Midgardsormr says ‘So, thy journey hath led thee to this accursed place. Canst thou hear it, mortal? The ceaseless keening of my kindred, steeped in five thousand years of suffering... Long before the Ishgardians and their base betrayal, there lived still more wicked men whose ambitions knew no bounds. Fearful of our might and covetous of our power, they devised a means to enslave dragonkind... Their vile misdeeds did set in motion a train of events whose repercussions are felt to this day. Beyond, thou wilt find one of my first brood. Hark thou unto her words. Partake thou of her pain. Think thou upon the suffering that the conflict betwixt our kinds hath begot.’ (Midgardsormr, Fetters of Lament, Heavensward).

And Tiamat claims that she and Bahamut and their many offspring lived peacefully in Meracydia for a long time. Until the Allage arrived. I know that Tiamat is bound to present things from her own perspective, but it seems to me that the experiences of Midgardsormr and the First Brood almost inevitably lead them to think men can't be trusted.

When Midgardsormr first meets us he calls us frail and ignoble; that's his experience of 'men' talking. It's only after witnessing our struggles and our resolve that he learns differently, at least of the WoL, and can say '‘Strong art thou, mortal─stronger than any other of thy kind. Having looked upon thy deeds, I am convinced. Thou art worthy to bear Her Light. The covenant bound me to thee, but 'twould seem our fates were mingled from the first. Though I will not fight thy battles, I will yet lend thee my wings. Come, mortal – we go to cast out the Darkness!’

So I insist on believing there is good in the Dravanians - some of them, at least! Nidhogg is clearly crazy and probably incapable of changing his perspective.

[Naria]

I wonder what sets it off then ... In our case, it was finding the first crystal (I think). Or a similar 'crucial' event if you played 1.x. What did Ysayle experience that awakened the Echo?

The echo is definitely not tied to a specific age, npcs of all ages would manifest it in 1.0. For the PC it manifested when they first entered their starting city. The PC then walked around in an echo trance for most of the first 15 levels without the character (or the player) realizing it. Echo memories in 1.0 were interactive and had only a faint sound effect to indicate the transition. It took the loremongers in 1.0 months to figure out what was going on. The only common elements in 1.0 of the echo manifesting was hearing “Hear, Feel, Think”, a vision of a starshower and dizziness. This did not necessarily happen right when the echo manifested though. I'd check out the old CG midlander thread and watch starting stories for 1.0 if you are interested in 1.0 echo.

The echo was also a lot more common as Minfilla ran an entire organization made of mostly echo users, “The Path of the Twelve”. I occasionally wonder what happened to all of them, as not everyone with the echo was a fighter and would have been at Carteneau, yet we never see more than a few npcs with the echo in 2.0+.

A lot of this has probably been quietly retconned, although Minfilla manifesting the echo as a child has not been.

I kinda figured that Ysayle was in her mid to late twenties when the calamity happened. She looked basically the same as she does now, and elezan age a bit more slowly than the other races. I think she was just very sheltered and naïve, in a lot of ways she still is in Heavensward. If I recall, Alphanaud and Alisae are seventeen at the start of ARR.

[Cilia]

I used to think like this, but the quests in Dravania kind of changed my mind about it...

While it's true the Ishgardians have not learned from Thordan's sins, this is arguably not their fault - the Church actively suppresses knowledge of the truth, to the point that the only people who know what actually sparked the Dragonsong War is the Heavens' Ward and the Archbishop. Even Aymeric, Knight-Commander of the Temple Knights, and Estinien, the Azure Dragoon, do not know the real reason why they are in an eternal war with the dragons and have been lied to their entire lives.

Without knowing the truth, it's impossible to learn from Thordan's mistakes. And seeing as the Church suppresses the truth, and the only options readily available to Ishgardians is to die in service to the country or become a heretic and later probably a dragon, the deck is stacked against them no matter what they choose. Heads die in service to Ishgard, tails commit suicide or become a dragon. Even the dragons have very few options with Nidhogg as their overlord: die for his vengeance, die to him, or live in seclusion.

It's not until we come along, as an independent third party, that the coin lands on its edge, the truth is let out, and the cycle is broken.

So I insist on believing there is good in the Dravanians - some of them, at least! Nidhogg is clearly crazy and probably incapable of changing his perspective.

Nidhogg may be a sadistic monster, but most of the dragons are neutral in stance. Hraesvelgr's brood isn't exactly benevolent, but they're not malicious either, and Midgardsormr is hard to place because he seems to take orders directly from Hydaelyn herself.

[CyrilLucifer]

I wonder what sets it off then ... In our case, it was finding the first crystal (I think). Or a similar 'crucial' event if you played 1.x. What did Ysayle experience that awakened the Echo? I mean, I know we don't

Just a quick note, but I'm pretty sure you awaken to the Echo at the very start of ARR as a new character, hence being able to talk and understand the moogles on the transport. And Hydaelyn. And see Lahabrea - or a vision of him.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Ysale is one of those characters that makes me regret the fact that the WoL is a silent protagonist.

I wanted to talk to her after the revelation at Zenith, Echo User to Echo User.

It just felt so wrong to leave her there spiritually and emotionally broken with out so much as saying it was time to accept the truth and move on.

The fact she commits suicide in Azys Lla was such a waste. She could have gone primal, Hrasvelgr could have joined in with his brood and we could have dealt Garlemauld a second blow like they took at silver tear skis.

But nope, Emo Suicide from her, Hrasvelgr go back home to be emo again, and we are no closer to stopping the war than when we started.

[Walluh]

Ysale is one of those characters that makes me regret the fact that the WoL is a silent protagonist.

Thisthisthiiiiiis. With how personal HW got, with Ysayle, Haurchefant, the Dark Knight 30-50 quest line, etc, etc, it's getting much, much more frustrating being silent.

[JeniLinsky]

she does not really understand how the dragons can still bear such a potent grudge after so long. She believes that Nidhogg will give up the war if he recovers his Eye; she is at a loss how to explain the slaughter in Foundation after she opened the defences for the dragons. ‘It wasn’t supposed to be like that! You have to believe me! It was . . . beyond my control. Children taught to fear the skies, who saw their loved ones slaughtered . . . Yet the Dravanians – though they know where the fault truly lies – fell on them with such fury . . .’

I've been playing for a while with the German voice acting turned on, though I have the English edition. In the German, when she opens the defenses of Ishgard, she says something like, "The time has come to fall on them with blood and fire!" If she truly didn't think that "blood and fire" was going to include innocents, then she's naive beyond words.

As for the dragons... Darwin said that the species which survives is not necessarily the strongest or fastest, but the most adaptable. So how have the Dravanians survived, if they can't let go of hatreds after thousands of years? If you were Gulliver, washed up on an island of Lilliputians, and those wee folk, in addition to small stature, lived for but a few days each, how long would you go on tormenting their descendants for tying you down and blinding you? Because tormenting is exactly what Niddhog is doing. He's not truly fighting a war, he's just trying to inflict equivalent misery, generation after generation. Crazy and inflexible... someone should have killed him long before.

[Kaiser-Ace]

He's not truly fighting a war, he's just trying to inflict equivalent misery, generation after generation. Crazy and inflexible... someone should have killed him long before.

That's why you don't leave something for dead, you decapitate it and burn the corpse to remove all doubt. After all, Midgardsormr was "Dead" for nearly 30 years before coming back as our little shoulder pet. But his body, despite being deceased, was still intact thus giving his soul something to cling onto. (the Metric <Kupo> tone of Aether and cerulium he was sitting on didn't hurt either)

[Elladie]

As for the dragons... Darwin said that the species which survives is not necessarily the strongest or fastest, but the most adaptable. So how have the Dravanians survived, if they can't let go of hatreds after thousands of years?

I'm not sure how we go about applying the theory of evolution to the dragons as a species since individual members of that species are so long- lived. I don't know how it would work, practically speaking, but it seems to me that any race that has members who live for an incredibly long time are bound to come up against issues when it relates to change and adaptability. In fact near-immortality sounds as if it would be fraught with problems regarding mental stability, especially if the world and the rest of the folk in it are subject to changes of often cataclysmic proportions like Hydaelyn seems to be.

On the other hand, Midgardsormr seems pretty adaptable. By the end of HW, he appears prepared to work with Aymeric to establish a lasting peace. Perhaps we'll even see him and the dragons at Anyx Trine oppose Nidhogg. Even Hraesvelgr's people - and Hraesvelgr is a real sit-on-the-fence guy - aren't happy with Nidhogg's minions as the FATES in the Churning Mists make clear. But dragons do like to cling to their grievances; look at Tiamat. I just hope she comes around and decides she can do more good by avenging Bahamut upon the Ascians instead of moping