How would you feel if they scrapped the current "classes"?

[Demacia]

Weird, whenever I played THF and meleed and then switched to crossbow, my TP went to zero. It's kind of beside the point anyway.

You have to separate the two systems, FFXI and FFXIV. It would be cool if you could switch between multiple types of weapon specialities without having to lvl them to a state of equivalent proficiency. For example, if you are a R50 Gladiator and R30 Archer and you switch between the two, obviously there will be a drastic change in your effectiveness.

I think the Physical Lvl system was supposed to counteract that, but obviously it has been diluted down a lot to give people the sense of progress they needed with the classes we have.

All in all, I think sacrificing the strategy of using a sword and switching to a bow is something I would be willing to make to maintain the armory system. But if you can think of a way for them to coexist...

Perhaps if you could uses macros such as /equip main "instert weapon here" during combat, then the system would be more functionaly. Obviously you'd need to level both weapons to an equivalent lvl to be worthwhile, but FF games were never easy, were they?

And in real life, being proficient in two weapons requires a lot of practice.

Even in FFXI you had to grind the ranged skill up anyway, unless you were using ranged weapons since lvl 1.

You never switched to crossbow because you could have both a melee and ranged weapon equipped at the same time. Quit lying.

I don't mind grinding if it means I can have actual freedom to play as I choose. The armory system does not provide that. I'd rather have several ways to play unique classes than have several "unique" builds that fill the same roles regardless of the weapon.

[gifthorse]

Thats not exactly true, I could not be a sword wielding THM in this as by equipping the sword my usefulness as a Mage diminishes greatly. However if the system was changed and not made dependant on the weapon but an actual class I could still be a fully functional THM with a sword as opposed to a "sword user" who can cast some spells.

With automatic MP regen nowadays, you can still function well enough.

Anyway, there is another thread on these forums on the distinction between roles/classes where we are discussing how the implementation of a template, label, or other bonus could help facilitate people to make the class they want. If you want to be a sword-wielding mage (like a RDM or something) as your role, then there is still the possibility to do so under the current armory system with the addition of aforementioned templates.

This is basically what I'm talking about. To me there are not seven, but two different classes. War & Magic. At this point you can basically be either Disipline of War class and be the same, only with a different weapon in your hand.(Maybe a shield.) The same goes to Disipline of Magic. Both can heal or cast elemental magic. Where's the specialization in this system?

In XI, (Please don't misread. I'm not saying to put this in 14. Only a reference.) What made each job special was it's own unique way to instill a purpose of it's role. Now I'm not going to list them all, just a couple.

I. Paladin - Most plainly put was it's purpose was to distract the monster's attention and take the damage so it doesn't run rampant on the rest of the squad. It could also heal itself, but was never directly related to a White Mage generally because MP and actions dictated his role of keeping emnity.

II. Warrior - Not at first, but down the line's, a Warrior's purpose was to deal critical damage to the enemy and help defeat them. Now also, like the Paladin, it was also played with the sub job Ninja.(Not stating Ninja. It was a freak in XI and can't be placed.) A Warrior never resembled a Ninja, only implementing a couple abilities from the Ninja(Utsusemi, and Dual Wield) to further it's place as a DD.

III. Thief - Now this one has a unique purpose in itself. Illusion. It's purpose for, not all, but many a great deal in terms of group work was to give the illusion of emnity to another. That, as well as it's very high evasion, were sole purposes of these jobs.

Now I know what you're thinking, a lot of these traits could be shared. I know! What I'm trying to get at is that this current implementation has a very loose restriction as to what abilities and traits can be shared. A Warrior could give away his Berserk ability, but did it mean that the one who used it as a sub job would gain ALL abilities? No. Only up to a certain point.

If any of this seems rather hazey, I'm truly sorry. I'm just trying to show my side of the story. We need a firmer grip on abilities and traits that can or can't be crossed over to another class.

I know what you're saying, but improving the armory system so that it can facilitate players into making those classes is better than removing altogether and substituting it for those classes.

The classes in FFXI and any other game are about balance and sacrifice. A Paladin sacrifices its DD abilities in order to be a better tank. So if there was a way to simply apply something like a "Paladin template" to your character which gave your character more defense but less attack, then it could exist within the confines of the armory system.

It's not mutually exclusive is what I'm trying to say.

And back on topic (i.e., back to what the OP was saying), im still not in favour of changing the name of the classes to the names of roles because that still doesn't make sense.

[Kimahri]

I seem to remember in XI that jobs were still bound to a single weapon because one was always optimal over the others and if you were, say, a warrior using anything other than a great axe you were generally blacklisted from group activities by the population at large.

That's not true. Although you mostly seen a Warrior dual wielding axes, and a Samurai using a Great Katana, it was mostly used for Leveling/Meriting. In truth, at the endgame scene of the spectrum(Not HNM.....) you would see a wide variety of weapons used. Especially in such area's as Sea in the CoP expansion. For instance when trying to get the pop items, a lot of the NM's were immune to certain types of attacks, (Blunt, Slashing, Piercing) and you would always see different weapon usage for different enemies.

Back in the day of Sky, I always remembered Warrior/Thief using a Great Axe over Axes because it dealt far more damage.

[Kimahri]

I know what you're saying, but improving the armory system so that it can facilitate players into making those classes is better than removing altogether and substituting it for those classes.

The classes in FFXI and any other game are about balance and sacrifice. A Paladin sacrifices its DD abilities in order to be a better tank. So if there was a way to simply apply something like a "Paladin template" to your character which gave your character more defense but less attack, then it could exist within the confines of the armory system.

It's not mutually exclusive is what I'm trying to say.

And back on topic (i.e., back to what the OP was saying), im still not in favour of changing the name of the classes to the names of roles because that still doesn't make sense.

Never said anything of scraping the entire armoury system. Just needs some redefining features to make things less of a big ole pot of scrambled eggs.

Also I haven't even been talking about the OP. I think changing names won't change anything. That's like going from Nazi to Neo-Nazi. Same shit, different diaper.

[AlexiaKidd]

I used to use my crossbow mid fight all the time in FFXI on DRK and I never lost my TP, in fact when someone pulled the mob I would often shoot it on the way to camp to gain some extra TP before we started the fight.

I am trying to understand what you are getting at here Gifthorse but I can't. What we are suggesting is that you separate weapons defining the class to making actual classes that can use different weapon's.

For example in FFXIV if we take MRD and separate it from being an axe user to an actual class, MRD in this case then the MRD would still have all the abilities that a MRD would learn but it would be able to equip a G. Axe and any other weapon it choose but then tie the weapon skill's to the weapon to make each weapon class unique as well. They would then have to implement a skillup system for weapon's to level your skill with the weapons to have better ACC and learn weapon skill's with it.

With that you still have a MRD but now it is not confined to a G. Axe and in fact creates even more options to build a class.

And back on topic (i.e., back to what the OP was saying), im still not in favour of changing the name of the classes to the names of roles because that still doesn't make sense.

We are not suggesting something as simple as changing the name of CON to WHM to please people. We are suggesting a complete re-evaluation of the system to remove the current system of weapon=class to implementing actual classes ie Split CON into 2 classes WHM and BLM both completely independent with their own skills and abilties.

[gifthorse]

You never switched to crossbow because you could have both a melee and ranged weapon equipped at the same time. Quit lying.

I don't mind grinding if it means I can have actual freedom to play as I choose. The armory system does not provide that. I'd rather have several ways to play unique classes than have several "unique" builds that fill the same roles regardless of the weapon.

Well it hurts your TP if your changing your ranged slots for different weapons. Or something. Obviously I quit like 4 years ago. Not everyone plays outdated MMOs still.

And the armory system doesn't have to be the wayit is if you bother to look for solutions instead of shooting everything down.

[AlexiaKidd]

And the armory system doesn't have to be the wayit is if you bother to look for solutions instead of shooting everything down.

Which is what we are trying to do by separating the class from weapon ><

[Demacia]

Well it hurts your TP if your changing your ranged slots for different weapons. Or something. Obviously I quit like 4 years ago. Not everyone plays outdated MMOs still.

And the armory system doesn't have to be the wayit is if you bother to look for solutions instead of shooting everything down.

Yeah, if you change from one crossbow to a different one, it drops your TP, but you can still change your ammo freely. What's your point?

The funny thing is the "outdated" MMO is more streamlined than the new one. The armory system is a step backwards from the subjob system, the maps in XIV are a major step backwards in quality, market wards are a step backwards from an AH, and battle regimens are a step backwards from skillchains and magic bursts, XIV in general is just a gigantic step backwards from FFXI. Am I saying turn it into FFXI-2? No, but I am suggesting that maybe the new game should not be way worse than the old one.

The game started on a bad foundation and if those foundations are scrapped for better ones I will gladly support it.

[AlexiaKidd]

Exactly I would like them to spend the time fixing the mechanic's of the game or even redoing entire system's before they start adding content on top of a bad foundation.

One of the major gripes that lost this game a lot of players is that this game does not feel like a Final Fantasy game, by reintroducing traditional classes and familiar systems that will go a long way to bringing the Final Fantasy feeling back.

[gifthorse]

Which is what we are trying to do by separating the class from weapon ><

The thing is, there's a difference between class and job. THM and WHM aren't jobs, they are classes. There is a distinction in the sense that one should find his or her job within the boundaries of the classes. The classes are left vague so that we can take our own direction within them.

Renaming and giving each class a specific direction is in opposition to what the armory system stands for. I already said this.