How would you feel if they scrapped the current "classes"?

[Blitz0309]

I'm sorry but there weren't very many viable combinations. Try getting into a party as a WAR/BLM.

I went to a few parites as pld/blm... granted it was accidental as i was skilling up and didn't realize. Still managed to do alright with hate control tho lol, though i had to work a bit more to keep it.

But not getting into a party as a war/blm illustrates a few points.

Uniqueness.. that just goes to prove that even a sub job varied your main job. Not that a warrior/blm is going to suddenly be a dark knight of sorts like it could be in this system, but its hardly an optimized class for a DD role. Granted in the lower levels it would of probably been okay as subs didn't have much effect. When i was low level (<10) i'd go anything/whm or rdm just so i could lower the downtime between mobs when soloing was actually possible in xi.

The community ultimately decides what works and doesn't. And that is why i don't like the idea of the armory system. Maybe you wanted your own little ghetto dark knight, but most people are going to pass over you. How long would it be till the same thing happens here? Ever try partying as a pup in xi?... What if you really want to level conj and be a DD.. probably going to get tossed the healer's role.

You still had tons of combinations that you could play. Some were much better than others, but ultimately who decided what was "good" was the community for better or worse. Then again, most people were far too focused on getting max exp as opposed to having fun. But most people just want to get to endgame as fast as possible. Some of the most fun i had in that game was with rag tag groups tossed together just to get some exp instead of waiting forever. Yeah a monk/sam couldn't tank an IT... but they could tear through a T... and yes you didn't see big numbers but it beat the hell out of sitting in town waiting.

I think the main issue is that this isn't a group/party game. You can solo your way to 50 if you want. And really thats what i always thought xi needed as sitting around lfp, or having to disband when your tank/healer left was horribly disheartening. (nothing like running 20 minutes to a party that would fight 2 mobs then disband).

But in doing so, and this armory system... it just seems too easy. I miss the excitement trying to solo random mobs and nearly dying. I enjoyed being in a party and getting agro or a link and fighting to survive. Most of all i took pride in my character's class and strive to be one of the players that made you think "damn, a monk/drg/rng/sam/etc... can really toss out some damage". Or the thf that helped the nin keep hate to keep the party rolling smoothly... the bard that pulled and always had the next mob waiting... or the drg that was soloing colibris your group was fighting when hes only 2 levels higher than you...

That is what i loved about that game... and i get no feeling of pride in this game. This game makes me feel just like my brief stent in WoW. Congrats you leveled!!... whoopty damn do.

I can go out and buy r50 optimal gear and wear it at level 1... even on a job that can't use it.. i can go out and have an ability of every class. But worst of all if i'm a maurader and i want to use a sword... now i'm suddenly a gladiator.

I don't care if they rip out all of the armory system and toss in a FFXI type system. I don't mind if they do the ff-tactics system that has been posted. I don't even care if they keep the armory system, as long as it makes the game fun to play.

[Blitz0309]

So basically here is what we could do to help this class be more defined while still appealing to masses.

I. Class restrictions on abilities R21 or R26 and up to class specific only. (Also I think they're going to redesign these abilities because quite frankly I think Tier 2 weaponskills as just plain stupid.)

II. Able to pick abilities from 2 or more other classes below the rank of either 20 or 25. (Depending on what cap you want.)

III. Able to obtain more class specific abilities through the guild mark system. (Also hope they change these around, too.)

IV. Weaponskills should stay in their respective classes. (If they implement a system where the class is no longer tied to the weapon, then basically what they did so well with in XI's weapon skill system.)

I. You're pretty much just asking for a sub job without saying it. Only saying that you can use any ability from any job. If they can do this without the dirty feeling of a blank class i'm for it. Otherwise.. no.

II. Sorta along the same lines. As the first one. You're still going to loose uniqueness the more you can mesh abilites into your class.

III. No arguments here. Maybe make tiered cost so you could get all abilities for a class, but its going to take a while (sorry, i like working towards something).

IV. Partially agree. If (please god) weapons are no longer tired to classes then if a maurader uses a sword let him have some of the skills, but not all of them. Leave that for the class who is designed with a sword. Sort of a proficiency model of sort.s

[Kimahri]

That is what i loved about that game... and i get no feeling of pride in this game. This game makes me feel just like my brief stent in WoW. Congrats you leveled!!... whoopty damn do.

Hahahahahahaha! That's the funniest damn thing I've heard today so it gave me one hell of a knee slap! lmao

Hey......I remember leveling MNK/WAR with maximum counter. I could solo everything in Crawler's nest down in the basement. (Soldier Crawler, Exoray, and I think it was the Dartfly? Maybe wrong on that one.)

And I agree with you 100% I feel no pride in being a certain class in this game. Everytime I level I think, "Wow. Well that's one level less of agony I have to go through."

Thanks for the laugh, man. Hahaha!

[darkstarpoet1]

Just want to say before you read this long thread that I'm sorry it was so long. lol

First of all, in regards to your part over the horns. I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Haha! But that's not saying SE won't step in and fix a minor problem such as that if things changed.

Now when you're talking about how the freedom to choose abilities over the actions used in FFXI, they can both be setup on the same stage. I'm starting to see your side of it, but I want to show you a little more of my side of it. Yes, you're correct. The XI system made the chance to choose certain abilities rather low as regards to which sub to use, but for me it still mattered because each job was used as a unique role to itself. A Warrior couldn't copy White Mage as effectly to keep itself alive past a certain level mob, and the consequence to subbing White Mage on a Warrior limited the abilities of the White Mage and MP in total.

To further that topic I'm on we can go completely opposite and give White Mage the subjob of Warrior. Now granted the White Mage doesn't have all the abilities of the Warrior job, it still gave some up to a certain extent to help the class.....In whichever way you could imagine.....Haha!

Now that is basically what I would like to see also implemented. I would not care that I can pick abilities up to, let's say R25, from certain other classes. I'll make a short based list on possiblities at the end of this post.

In your defense you want to be able to pull abilities from every job you level, except the one's already restricted to class specific. Now even though this could lead to a huge variety of different abilities, you will only pick a select few that makes the class most powerful. What I see is that a lot of classes will never see the light of day after being leveled for an ability. And that would make me furious that I had to level the class just for one or two. As stated above I'm sure a way we can remedy this is if we implement a sort of subjob feature into the class system, but instead you can choose from maybe 2 or more other classes which abilities. And also let's not forget that for the sake of this post R20-25 is the limit from abilities you can pull.

So basically here is what we could do to help this class be more defined while still appealing to masses.

I. Class restrictions on abilities R21 or R26 and up to class specific only. (Also I think they're going to redesign these abilities because quite frankly I think Tier 2 weaponskills as just plain stupid.)

II. Able to pick abilities from 2 or more other classes below the rank of either 20 or 25. (Depending on what cap you want.)

III. Able to obtain more class specific abilities through the guild mark system. (Also hope they change these around, too.)

IV. Weaponskills should stay in their respective classes. (If they implement a system where the class is no longer tied to the weapon, then basically what they did so well with in XI's weapon skill system.)

What do you think so far? It might seem more XI on your side, but it actually melds them both into a good harmony. Especially with the way you can pick abilities from more than just one. Let me know what you think.

first let me apologize for the long response.

yeah i understand what ya mean on the class specifics, but i just don't want them to remove the abilities we have earned taken away from us. like i said i am fine with both the new abilities after the cap is heightened and the ones received from the guilds to be class specific.

i also agree that if a pug or gla uses cures they should not be able to use the highest version of the skill such as Cure III Sacrifice III. those are the highest cures in the game and should be kept in their respective classes. that would still only allow a pug to fight mobs up to a certain point before the ability requires more help from a mage so the mages would still be in major demand. i also have no problem with say a pug uses shell and the con cool down is 3 min. double the length of cooldown to 6 min for using it as anything besides con. it would give you the option to use it if you get in a fight with an unusually tough mob for a one time deal, but not able to use it consistently when tryin to solo. same for using weaponskills from other classes. that way you still have the option to use them, but have drawbacks for not using it as the class it was designed for.

ok i have to step back to explain the horn thing i was talking about earlier. to break a horn off the antelope horn, billygoat horn, or mosshorn billygoat you only have 3 abilities in the game that can break them off. pug has concussive blow II, mrd has skull sunder II, and arc has shrieker. if you make those weaponskills only on the class you get them from anyone not one of those 3 classes has no ability to be able to farm those mobs. that is unfair to all of the other classes to have to depend on someone selling those horns at 10k billygoat to 100k for the antelope horn. that was why i was giving those 3 as a helpful ability to have as far as needing one of them to farm horns because without breaking the horns you have a <1% chance of getting the drop. with them you get closer to 40% drop rate.

i know alot of people hate the tier 2 abilities, but you realize for incap hits the first tier does not count as an incap hit right. concussive blow you can use all day long on a goat and you will never break the horn, but concussive blow ii breaks when the damage is around 1000 on the horns.

we are alot closer to coming up with a happy medium on where to draw the line on cross classing. you want them to cut off at r20-r25 and i would just like the abilities that we have now available to continue to be available. i would love for them to add alot of abilities to the guild to allow you to be able to specialize the class that you want to use, but not take away the abilities that people have already unlocked to use on their main class. you were refering to leveling up characters just to get abilities and while at this point this is the case i plan on getting all classes to 50 before i chose my true main class. right now i absolutely love playing my pug, but that's not to say it will be the class i take past 50. i am leveling thm not for the resurect ability, but because our ls needs more high level healers so i would be able to play either class during nm's. to be honest the higher i get my thm the more i am liking this class also. i have a feeling each class will be the same way so there is no telling what class i will wind up eventually using.

like i said my main concern is having character uniqueness over class uniqueness, but willing to compromise the points of being able to use all abilities is not a great idea. i do agree on the needing a stopping point on where to draw the line. i just believe more skills will be given out and that's when the class specialization and uniqueness will come into effect. i just do not want to see all of the work i've done to get my main class for now the way i want and it is unique in the way that i doubt another pug has the same skills set on their bars i have on mine.

[Karvapeikko]

Now basically what we have though is a pick and choose clash of abilities for classes to mesh together with very little abilities set as class specific. I pointed out that instead of this I would much rather see a Marauder retain all weaponskills(Unless of course they do away with a Marauder only wielding a Great Axe. In that case only specific one's should end up being class specific.) and most abilities regarding TP, but I can see giving up Bloodbath, Defender, Disorient, and Warmonger.(This ability I can only see useful for a Gladiator.)

I agree with you that weaponskills need to be a LOT more attached to a weapon or a weapon type. It's just insane that I'm shooting Skull Sunders with my bow and striking Wide Volleys with my knuckles. But as system goes now it's as DarkStar stated: Borrowing weaponskills from other classes is very handy or a must, if you want to farm those horns for example and you have too little time to get a party to help with it. Getting class exclusive skills and giving them more meaning than current big mass of dull animations that just do more damage, apart from the cream everyone takes as you stated.

Now where I do agree with you is that they need to make some better damn abilities that you can obtain through guild marks. Quite frankly as I said I only see one good one and that's the Conjurer's Fast Cast.

Well there are some good ones as well like Multishot and Out of Sight for archer, Self Preservation for gladiator, Intimidation for marauder (Altough I think it suits gladiator more). It's also true that we definitely need more class spesific skills to get from them and they need to be badass enough to get people feel their class is unique from others and stick to it.

With this way I said I could really see a clearly more defined class, and hell it's not perfect so it's open for debate. What I want to know is what you think as well?

This is main point I'm concerned about the future of battle system. I think classes don't need to be too defined for one role like tanking or healing, but ridiculous ideas like gladiator tank also easily healing itself. It's clear that now when people got their hands on Cure/Sacrifice with all classes their not easily willing to let go of them. I think all classes could get multiple choices of roles for them, like gladiator DD, but then it shouldn't be able to define itself as a tank the same time.

EDIT: I'm not too familiar with posting so quotes are bad atm.

[Kimahri]

I. You're pretty much just asking for a sub job without saying it. Only saying that you can use any ability from any job. If they can do this without the dirty feeling of a blank class i'm for it. Otherwise.. no.

II. Sorta along the same lines. As the first one. You're still going to loose uniqueness the more you can mesh abilites into your class.

III. No arguments here. Maybe make tiered cost so you could get all abilities for a class, but its going to take a while (sorry, i like working towards something).

IV. Partially agree. If (please god) weapons are no longer tired to classes then if a maurader uses a sword let him have some of the skills, but not all of them. Leave that for the class who is designed with a sword. Sort of a proficiency model of sort.s

Ah. Well before I go to bed I want to thank you for your honesty. With the first point it's basically limiting skills past a certain point to only class specific and the second point is listing instead of one sub class a choice between a couple.....Or even a couple skills from all the other classes...Certain things like Cure & Sacrifice shouldn't mix, and Cure should be a certain percentage less effective with a DoW class and also cost more MP. (Since the damn MP scale is way way out there right now.)

Again thank you for the honesty. Hope you can find some other points of view for me to look at later. Peace.

[Kimahri]

I agree with you that weaponskills need to be a LOT more attached to a weapon or a weapon type. It's just insane that I'm shooting Skull Sunders with my bow and striking Wide Volleys with my knuckles. But as system goes now it's as DarkStar stated: Borrowing weaponskills from other classes is very handy or a must, if you want to farm those horns for example and you have too little time to get a party to help with it. Getting class exclusive skills and giving them more meaning than current big mass of dull animations that just do more damage, apart from the cream everyone takes as you stated.

Yeah. I heard that from DarkStar as well and in reality I think a way to solve this on my end was for SE to change these functions of obtaining items to use abilities from all class spectrums. Does this sound better? That way you can still do it on your own. Now let me sleep!!!! lol

[darkstarpoet1]

have a good one kimahri and appreciated the civil discussion i think we both got to see the others side by just being able to not only talk about what we want, but to listen to what the other has to say also.

[Kimahri]

first let me apologize for the long response.

yeah i understand what ya mean on the class specifics, but i just don't want them to remove the abilities we have earned taken away from us. like i said i am fine with both the new abilities after the cap is heightened and the ones received from the guilds to be class specific.

i also agree that if a pug or gla uses cures they should not be able to use the highest version of the skill such as Cure III Sacrifice III. those are the highest cures in the game and should be kept in their respective classes. that would still only allow a pug to fight mobs up to a certain point before the ability requires more help from a mage so the mages would still be in major demand. i also have no problem with say a pug uses shell and the con cool down is 3 min. double the length of cooldown to 6 min for using it as anything besides con. it would give you the option to use it if you get in a fight with an unusually tough mob for a one time deal, but not able to use it consistently when tryin to solo. same for using weaponskills from other classes. that way you still have the option to use them, but have drawbacks for not using it as the class it was designed for.

ok i have to step back to explain the horn thing i was talking about earlier. to break a horn off the antelope horn, billygoat horn, or mosshorn billygoat you only have 3 abilities in the game that can break them off. pug has concussive blow II, mrd has skull sunder II, and arc has shrieker. if you make those weaponskills only on the class you get them from anyone not one of those 3 classes has no ability to be able to farm those mobs. that is unfair to all of the other classes to have to depend on someone selling those horns at 10k billygoat to 100k for the antelope horn. that was why i was giving those 3 as a helpful ability to have as far as needing one of them to farm horns because without breaking the horns you have a <1% chance of getting the drop. with them you get closer to 40% drop rate.

i know alot of people hate the tier 2 abilities, but you realize for incap hits the first tier does not count as an incap hit right. concussive blow you can use all day long on a goat and you will never break the horn, but concussive blow ii breaks when the damage is around 1000 on the horns.

we are alot closer to coming up with a happy medium on where to draw the line on cross classing. you want them to cut off at r20-r25 and i would just like the abilities that we have now available to continue to be available. i would love for them to add alot of abilities to the guild to allow you to be able to specialize the class that you want to use, but not take away the abilities that people have already unlocked to use on their main class. you were refering to leveling up characters just to get abilities and while at this point this is the case i plan on getting all classes to 50 before i chose my true main class. right now i absolutely love playing my pug, but that's not to say it will be the class i take past 50. i am leveling thm not for the resurect ability, but because our ls needs more high level healers so i would be able to play either class during nm's. to be honest the higher i get my thm the more i am liking this class also. i have a feeling each class will be the same way so there is no telling what class i will wind up eventually using.

like i said my main concern is having character uniqueness over class uniqueness, but willing to compromise the points of being able to use all abilities is not a great idea. i do agree on the needing a stopping point on where to draw the line. i just believe more skills will be given out and that's when the class specialization and uniqueness will come into effect. i just do not want to see all of the work i've done to get my main class for now the way i want and it is unique in the way that i doubt another pug has the same skills set on their bars i have on mine.

Okay. Just on this topic of the horn breaking. I don't see how this one example deserves credit to your ideal situation on abilities. Certain things like this can easily be repaired should SE choose another route in stimulating the classes.

Now from what I've read, and I'm not jumping down your throat, you're still in favor of keeping all the abilities now and making the new ones class specific? That doesn't help the problem other people are facing. Right now if we stand apart from one another, I was in the left corner, and you in the right. I tried to come to the middle ground, but it seems to me you never left the corner.

Having all abilities up to Rank 50 would seem rather selfish. Even though I agree with you that more abilities should be won with guild marks, I don't see that many abilities from guild marks. And after they raise the cap? Even if they raise it to 75 with their current system, that's only 12 more abilities if the current system is in play. (Most of them will probably be the same if the current system is still in effect. Example: Concussion Blow III or IV.)

I do not see how you want character uniqueness but not at the cost of class uniqueness? Those are one in the same. Your class defines your character. If your class was a Juggler, your character isn't a Thaumaturge. At one point or the other if you want a defined character, you'll have to make a choice between your classes. Again I say that it's rather unfair that people get to use Marauder & Conjurer abilities incorporated into their Lancer because they leveled three to four classes while I only wanted the two. (Also seems selfish if you look at it.)

Now before we get on to the next topic, if you say nobody is forcing you to level the other classes you're utterly wrong. I've been in severe endgame communities before. I know what they expect and what they do if you don't meet those expectations. It's just the simple fact of truth. People are not as considerate as I or others such as me.

Now the last thing I wanted to point out in your post was the last paragraph resulting in consequences to using Shell as a DoW. When I had the cut off line of abilities at 25, shell was still incorporated. Yes, I would think that it'd be a little less resistant than an actual DoM that casts it. However, putting up a crazy cool down time wouldn't do this justice. 6 minute cooldown? Maybe if the cooldown was equaled to that of the spell timer. That would be much better so people don't spam it on others and only theirself.

Now again I'm sorry if this thread seems rather harsh. I hope it's not, because I didn't really want it to be. I'm just trying to point out some facts in your approach to this solution that doesn't seem right. To me it seemed like the best excuse you had was that you needed these abilities so you could break a horn off a billygoat or antelope. That is not even close to an excuse. Along the lines such as that you know SE would change it if they changed the current system. Case in point would be the recent patch where they doubled the amount of HP a Coblyn has because it was too radical.

P.S. I have your passion for this game. I really do. I want my friends that I knew for 7 years playing FFXI with me to come back to this game so we can kick it for another 7. They don't like this system now and that's mainly why I also want to see it changed. The system seems way too easy for me and basically feels like I have a cheat book on this game.

[darkstarpoet1]

i do see your point and i did move to the middle my ideal situation would being able to keep any ability i earn now, future, and through guild marks because i have earned them. my concession to that was adding extra abilities that would allow for class uniqueness, but not take away the hard work myself and others have put into the game. the being able to equip many abilities and customize your character was a big selling point in the game which is the reason alot of hardcore gamers including myself purchased this game regardless of the negative reviews this game was given.

in response to

"I do not see how you want character uniqueness but not at the cost of class uniqueness? Those are one in the same. Your class defines your character. If your class was a Juggler, your character isn't a Thaumaturge. At one point or the other if you want a defined character, you'll have to make a choice between your classes. Again I say that it's rather unfair that people get to use Marauder & Conjurer abilities incorporated into their Lancer because they leveled three to four classes while I only wanted the two. (Also seems selfish if you look at it.)"

isn't it unfair to punish the people that took the time to level those 4 characters? i understand you only want to level 2 classes and that is your right as playing the game as you want. i just don't see why people can't understand that just because some people do not like leveling multiple classes they should punish the rest of us that are still on grinding multiple classes to make ours the way we want.

i understand you only took the breaking horns as my only example and there are tons more i just brought up the horns as an example of my assisting people when a question that is asked because it was the last battleclass question i had answered in game.

btw no i did not take your view as rude at all. that's why we continue to have civil conversations is because we are both willing to look at the other side. i do understand there are people that only want a few classes and i do understand that, but i also realize that there are just as many people that have multiple classes we have leveled. i just only see people if they are a mage expected to have some of each thm and con spells and like gla having tanking abilities from other classes, but those are the types of things you already stated you would like to still cross class. this game is large enough for you to be able to run only 1 or 2 classes and still be welcome in any endgame scenarios that will eventually be implemented. i feel as though classes will eventually be raised to probably lvl 100 capped by the time it is all said and done and in that scenario i would have given up close to 2/3 of the abilities i would like to use. remember lvl 50 is in no way the cap that will be used in endgame scenarios and these abilities we are arguing over will be irrelevant by the time we get there besides just in solo environments.