How would you feel if they scrapped the current "classes"?

[Aramil]

Actually, FFXI players all ended up the same because the subjob system accommodated around two main/sub combos max. What I mean is, every WAR/NIN was the same. Every BLM/SMN was the same. Every SMN/WHM was the same

Anyway, I agree that they need to shuffle some things in the armory system around and also help diversify the potential outcomes of the system.

On topic: I don't think they should scrap the original classes, I think they need to help facilitate people to create a variety of defined roles within those class boundaries.

While I agree with you, the problem is that the armory system won't prevent that. Right now the game is still recent but in the long run i have no doubt that a similar thing will happen in XIV. For exemple thm will probably be expected to level conjurer to learn spell like protect and raise. A gladiator to level marauder for defender. DDs to get feint, raging strike and ferocity, etc. Of course you could decide that you want to use spell with your gladiator, but in party other players will probably tell you not to do that.

The thing is that once a game has been out for long enough, the "best" builds are found by the community and everyone is expected to use one of them. Armory system or job system, it won't matter.

As for scrapping the current classes, if it's to make the game better I don't mind.

[gifthorse]

While I agree with you, the problem is that the armory system won't prevent that. Right now the game is still recent but in the long run i have no doubt that a similar thing will happen in XIV. For exemple thm will probably be expected to level conjurer to learn spell like protect and raise. A gladiator to level marauder for defender. DDs to get feint, raging strike and ferocity, etc. Of course you could decide that you want to use spell with your gladiator, but in party other players will probably tell you not to do that.

The thing is that once a game has been out for long enough, the "best" builds are found by the community and everyone is expected to use one of them. Armory system or job system, it won't matter.

As for scrapping the current classes, if it's to make the game better I don't mind.

Balance is always an ongoing issue, which is why the developers need to, both now and in the future, participate in fostering a sense of diversity. If one build achieves supreme status over all others, then changes need to be made to give other builds equivalent viability.

MMOs always have to be equilibriated.

Just because the armory system is still in its infancy and SE hasn't struck the right balance yet doesn't mean it should be dismissed altogether, which is essentially what the original topic is asking for.

If the issue is diversifying players and giving them defined roles, then this can be achieved by creating specialisations within the armory system. Yoshi has already talked of this as an option, and we have the various sketches to prove it.

[Choc]

Balance is always an ongoing issue, which is why the developers need to, both now and in the future, participate in fostering a sense of diversity. If one build achieves supreme status over all others, then changes need to be made to give other builds equivalent viability.

MMOs always have to be equilibriated.

Just because the armory system is still in its infancy and SE hasn't struck the right balance yet doesn't mean it should be dismissed altogether, which is essentially what the original topic is asking for.

If the issue is diversifying players and giving them defined roles, then this can be achieved by creating specialisations within the armory system. Yoshi has already talked of this as an option, and we have the various sketches to prove it.

There are always going to be certain "builds" required by the community. You complained about not being able to play as a war/blm but how is this game any different? Do you think a party would be crazy about a gladiator spamming thunder/fire spells? They are hardly worth the time on conjurer anyways, on a gladiator they are garbage and should be, thunder shouldnt be as strong as just a standard gladiator attack on a gladiator so why would anyone try that?

You cant just make them more effective on other classes, a gladiator shouldnt be able to have the spellpower of a conjurer or even close to it while still having the durability of a gladiator, if they did why would anyone want to be a conjurer?

Having the complete freedom to put anything on any class just doesnt work, and people get upset that nearly every skill from other classes are worthless on their class anyway.

[gifthorse]

There are always going to be certain "builds" required by the community. You complained about not being able to play as a war/blm but how is this game any different? Do you think a party would be crazy about a gladiator spamming thunder/fire spells? They are hardly worth the time on conjurer anyways, on a gladiator they are garbage and should be, thunder shouldnt be as strong as just a standard gladiator attack on a gladiator so why would anyone try that?

You cant just make them more effective on other classes, a gladiator shouldnt be able to have the spellpower of a conjurer or even close to it while still having the durability of a gladiator, if they did why would anyone want to be a conjurer?

Having the complete freedom to put anything on any class just doesnt work, and people get upset that nearly every skill from other classes are worthless on their class anyway.

My point isnt that everything should be overpowered, but that there should be a diversity of roles. If you want to be a sword wielding mage that can tank and heal and destroy everything at range or something crazy, then obviously the game shouldn't accommodate that.

But if you want to be a sword wielding mage that enchants, enfeebles, etc., then maybe that is something that the developers should try and support.

[Choc]

My point isnt that everything should be overpowered, but that there should be a diversity of roles. If you want to be a sword wielding mage that can tank and heal and destroy everything at range or something crazy, then obviously the game shouldn't accommodate that.

But if you want to be a sword wielding mage that enchants, enfeebles, etc., then maybe that is something that the developers should try and support.

and what drawbacks will there be to playing like that? If every class could have enfeebles why wouldnt everyone have the best ones equiped? For instance bio/dia seem to be the popular debuffs, and if any class could equip those without having them be gimped or recieve any penalties for using them why wouldnt everyone already have them? If every class can have Cure III equiped and use it, why wouldnt they? Hence we come back to the certain "builds" everyones going to get the best of each class and put it on their own.

[MarkH]

While I agree with you that every war/nin is just about the same, I think that that fact contribute positively to the formation of party as when I invited someone with a specific main job/sub job combination, i know exactly what I'm getting.

another problem i see with this system is that I feel like whatever DoW job i play, it's the same experience, whether pug lnc gla, archer feel a litte different. While with the main/sub system of FFXI, even though every war/nin play the same, my sam and my war and my rng play differently.

And even within just one job, the play style is different when I play sam/war as oppose to sam/thf or sam/nin or sam/drg. sam/way I just deal damage and back up tank/ first voke for sata. As sam/thf I help with hate control. and that's just for party, sam/dnc is viable for solo play.

For other job I have to say that while i play smn/whm in party all the time, out of party sometime I go smn/sam as with Spirit Taker and Elemental Siphon, i never need to rest. For ranger in party I have went rng/nin and rng/sam. and for mission (specifically feast for gnat) i went with /war.

So I feel like the way of FFXI is flexible enough that I can change my main/sub job combination to fit in the need of the mission at hand while keeping the jobs unique that I feel each of my job play differently.

I also like the freedom that as sam I can use Great Katana and Polearm. I use polearm on my sam when in my 50s when we get penta thrust (and also for royal jelly) and great katana elsewhere. And the fact that it can use almost every weapon in the game is why I leveled war in the first place..

So to me, I would prefer a system where classes are not tied to weapon and where each class can be unique so that when I play a different class, I feel like I'm playing a different class. Does not necessary have to be FFXI's way, but I just hate this IKEA, build it yourself, job system.

[Kimahri]

While I agree with you that every war/nin is just about the same, I think that that fact contribute positively to the formation of party as when I invited someone with a specific main job/sub job combination, i know exactly what I'm getting.

another problem i see with this system is that I feel like whatever DoW job i play, it's the same experience, whether pug lnc gla, archer feel a litte different. While with the main/sub system of FFXI, even though every war/nin play the same, my sam and my war and my rng play differently.

And even within just one job, the play style is different when I play sam/war as oppose to sam/thf or sam/nin or sam/drg. sam/way I just deal damage and back up tank/ first voke for sata. As sam/thf I help with hate control. and that's just for party, sam/dnc is viable for solo play.

For other job I have to say that while i play smn/whm in party all the time, out of party sometime I go smn/sam as with Spirit Taker and Elemental Siphon, i never need to rest. For ranger in party I have went rng/nin and rng/sam. and for mission (specifically feast for gnat) i went with /war.

So I feel like the way of FFXI is flexible enough that I can change my main/sub job combination to fit in the need of the mission at hand while keeping the jobs unique that I feel each of my job play differently.

I also like the freedom that as sam I can use Great Katana and Polearm. I use polearm on my sam when in my 50s when we get penta thrust (and also for royal jelly) and great katana elsewhere. And the fact that it can use almost every weapon in the game is why I leveled war in the first place..

So to me, I would prefer a system where classes are not tied to weapon and where each class can be unique so that when I play a different class, I feel like I'm playing a different class. Does not necessary have to be FFXI's way, but I just hate this IKEA, build it yourself, job system.

Teach me the way of the Samurai, Master! Here's one dude who knows what Character Uniqueness is all about. Bravo, my friend.

[Rosalie]

While I agree with you that every war/nin is just about the same, I think that that fact contribute positively to the formation of party as when I invited someone with a specific main job/sub job combination, i know exactly what I'm getting.

another problem i see with this system is that I feel like whatever DoW job i play, it's the same experience, whether pug lnc gla, archer feel a litte different. While with the main/sub system of FFXI, even though every war/nin play the same, my sam and my war and my rng play differently.

And even within just one job, the play style is different when I play sam/war as oppose to sam/thf or sam/nin or sam/drg. sam/way I just deal damage and back up tank/ first voke for sata. As sam/thf I help with hate control. and that's just for party, sam/dnc is viable for solo play.

For other job I have to say that while i play smn/whm in party all the time, out of party sometime I go smn/sam as with Spirit Taker and Elemental Siphon, i never need to rest. For ranger in party I have went rng/nin and rng/sam. and for mission (specifically feast for gnat) i went with /war.

So I feel like the way of FFXI is flexible enough that I can change my main/sub job combination to fit in the need of the mission at hand while keeping the jobs unique that I feel each of my job play differently.

I also like the freedom that as sam I can use Great Katana and Polearm. I use polearm on my sam when in my 50s when we get penta thrust (and also for royal jelly) and great katana elsewhere. And the fact that it can use almost every weapon in the game is why I leveled war in the first place..

So to me, I would prefer a system where classes are not tied to weapon and where each class can be unique so that when I play a different class, I feel like I'm playing a different class. Does not necessary have to be FFXI's way, but I just hate this IKEA, build it yourself, job system.

Well... for one thing nobody WAR/NIN's anymore unless they're skilling up. Great Axe is the new godking, so everyone WAR/SAM's now.

Getting back to the original topic though, I actually do like the current classes and how they've implemented them into the story of the game. If you look at their 'standard' garb, it's plain to see that a MRD is not a WAR, and it's not exactly a COR, especially when you look at the way that COR was implemented in FFXI. ARC's really aren't the same as RNG either, since you won't be seeing any guns on them (yes, I'm anticipating the Musketeer class...) Additionally, GLA's are most definitely not PLD's, with the Coliseum totally not reeking of honor and valor... and PUG's aren't MNK's, nor are they THF's (really they look to me like the Dread Pirate Roberts from The Princess Bride. ) And since when can WHM's cast Flare?

[Aramil]

My point isnt that everything should be overpowered, but that there should be a diversity of roles. If you want to be a sword wielding mage that can tank and heal and destroy everything at range or something crazy, then obviously the game shouldn't accommodate that.

But if you want to be a sword wielding mage that enchants, enfeebles, etc., then maybe that is something that the developers should try and support.

I agree, that would be amazing, the only problem is that if you want multiple classes in a game, you need balance otherwise everyone will use the same classes. So to balance, unless you make all the classes exactly the same, you need to give weakness to balance the strength. By introducing strength and weakness, if the players can customize their character even a little(chose skill or stats for example) you just introduce the concept of "best" build(max the strength and min the weakness).

It's sad but as long as there's customization available, the community will expect everyone to use the best build.

[Aramil]

I agree, that would be amazing, the only problem is that if you want multiple classes in a game, you need balance otherwise everyone will use the same classes. So to balance, unless you make all the classes exactly the same, you need to give weakness to balance the strength. By introducing strength and weakness, if the players can customize their character even a little(chose skill or stats for example) you just introduce the concept of "best" build(max the strength and min the weakness).

It's sad but as long as there's customization available, the community will expect everyone to use the best build.

Actually I forgot to add something to my last post ^^;

There is a way to achieve what you seem to want, to let everyone play more or less as they want without having to do exactly the same thing as every other players.

That way is to have so many customizable stuff, so many choices that the amount of "best" build is so high that there's one for every kind of players. An example for this would be D&D the pen and paper rpg(not sure about D&Donline since i haven't try it). I'm using it since i haven't see any mmo offer that many possible customization. With all the books available, between the skills, classes, prestige classes, feat, items, spells, stats, etc, you could min/max(if you wanted) almost any kind of characters from single class like plain warrior, to multi classes with a ridiculous amount of prestige classes to melee/spellcaster hybrid, etc).

If they could achieve something like that it would be perfect. Well not completely since players who prefer a more simple style of gaming would probably hate it. Also I doubt it could be achieve in a mmo because it require too much balancing. For a pen and paper game it's fine since the gm can just nerf something that's too powerful, go with a compromise or whatever since he's not bound by the rules but for a mmo, the balance would need to be redone everytime something too powerful is found. So just because of the time and staff needed it would be unthinkable.