How would you feel if they scrapped the current "classes"?

[gifthorse]

That's not what we're trying to say, Gifthorse. It's not about wielding every weapon. The weapon's are just the tool. What we want is Role Specialization's.

You know, when I first heard about Weapon Specialization's long before the Alpha-Beta tests, I was under the impression that you would start out with a weapon of choice and use your experience to upgrade the weapon. Now what I mean by this is that on every job they would hand you your starter weapon. There would be no more, "The next best thing!" as far as new weapons were concerned. I thought that as you progressed your character through battles, quests, and missions, your weapon would grow more powerful and take shape as your character did. It's sort of like the weapons in Final Fantasy XIII. You would have a starter weapon and could upgrade it through the course of the game.

I was thinking that would be such a hell of an idea. Sadly I was mistaken as to what he was saying. ; ;

Oh... well that's more your own fault than the armory system's fault.

Most people don't play MMOs to be given everything. They like the idea of individual progression and expression. The armory system provides a basis for that, and also a basis for developing your own role.

Regardless of the weapon you choose to specialise in, you can choose a role independent of that. So although some people say that the armory system is boring because each class has only one weapon, that's incorrect, since each role can have all the weapons. It's all up to you.

The areas in which the armory system falls short (for the meantime) concern the fact that there is no way to enhance your role beyond a series of roles. For instance, if you want to be a DD magic-user (BLM), you are just as effective at healing (WHM). So even if you want to be a BLM, there's nothing differentiating you from a WHM. So most parties will insist you just heal.

If there was a way to enhance your role, both in demonstrating it visually to other players (AF gear etc), and also in bonus attributes, then the armory system could improve greatly to allow for greater role specialisations. Which, incidentally, is the thing you're complaining about.

[AlexiaKidd]

Oh... well that's more your own fault than the armory system's fault.

Most people don't play MMOs to be given everything. They like the idea of individual progression and expression. The armory system provides a basis for that, and also a basis for developing your own role.

Regardless of the weapon you choose to specialise in, you can choose a role independent of that. So although some people say that the armory system is boring because each class has only one weapon, that's incorrect, since each role can have all the weapons. It's all up to you.

The areas in which the armory system falls short (for the meantime) concern the fact that there is no way to enhance your role beyond a series of roles. For instance, if you want to be a DD magic-user (BLM), you are just as effective at healing (WHM). So even if you want to be a BLM, there's nothing differentiating you from a WHM. So most parties will insist you just heal.

If there was a way to enhance your role, both in demonstrating it visually to other players (AF gear etc), and also in bonus attributes, then the armory system could improve greatly to allow for greater role specialisations. Which, incidentally, is the thing you're complaining about.

Thats not exactly true, I could not be a sword wielding THM in this as by equipping the sword my usefulness as a Mage diminishes greatly. However if the system was changed and not made dependant on the weapon but an actual class I could still be a fully functional THM with a sword as opposed to a "sword user" who can cast some spells.

[Kimahri]

The areas in which the armory system falls short (for the meantime) concern the fact that there is no way to enhance your role beyond a series of roles. For instance, if you want to be a DD magic-user (BLM), you are just as effective at healing (WHM). So even if you want to be a BLM, there's nothing differentiating you from a WHM. So most parties will insist you just heal.

This is basically what I'm talking about. To me there are not seven, but two different classes. War & Magic. At this point you can basically be either Disipline of War class and be the same, only with a different weapon in your hand.(Maybe a shield.) The same goes to Disipline of Magic. Both can heal or cast elemental magic. Where's the specialization in this system?

In XI, (Please don't misread. I'm not saying to put this in 14. Only a reference.) What made each job special was it's own unique way to instill a purpose of it's role. Now I'm not going to list them all, just a couple.

I. Paladin - Most plainly put was it's purpose was to distract the monster's attention and take the damage so it doesn't run rampant on the rest of the squad. It could also heal itself, but was never directly related to a White Mage generally because MP and actions dictated his role of keeping emnity.

II. Warrior - Not at first, but down the line's, a Warrior's purpose was to deal critical damage to the enemy and help defeat them. Now also, like the Paladin, it was also played with the sub job Ninja.(Not stating Ninja. It was a freak in XI and can't be placed.) A Warrior never resembled a Ninja, only implementing a couple abilities from the Ninja(Utsusemi, and Dual Wield) to further it's place as a DD.

III. Thief - Now this one has a unique purpose in itself. Illusion. It's purpose for, not all, but many a great deal in terms of group work was to give the illusion of emnity to another. That, as well as it's very high evasion, were sole purposes of these jobs.

Now I know what you're thinking, a lot of these traits could be shared. I know! What I'm trying to get at is that this current implementation has a very loose restriction as to what abilities and traits can be shared. A Warrior could give away his Berserk ability, but did it mean that the one who used it as a sub job would gain ALL abilities? No. Only up to a certain point.

If any of this seems rather hazey, I'm truly sorry. I'm just trying to show my side of the story. We need a firmer grip on abilities and traits that can or can't be crossed over to another class.

[gifthorse]

Thats not exactly true, I could not be a sword wielding THM in this as by equipping the sword my usefulness as a Mage diminishes greatly. However if the system was changed and not made dependant on the weapon but an actual class I could still be a fully functional THM with a sword as opposed to a "sword user" who can cast some spells.

With automatic MP regen nowadays, you can still function well enough.

Anyway, there is another thread on these forums on the distinction between roles/classes where we are discussing how the implementation of a template, label, or other bonus could help facilitate people to make the class they want. If you want to be a sword-wielding mage (like a RDM or something) as your role, then there is still the possibility to do so under the current armory system with the addition of aforementioned templates.

This is basically what I'm talking about. To me there are not seven, but two different classes. War & Magic. At this point you can basically be either Disipline of War class and be the same, only with a different weapon in your hand.(Maybe a shield.) The same goes to Disipline of Magic. Both can heal or cast elemental magic. Where's the specialization in this system?

In XI, (Please don't misread. I'm not saying to put this in 14. Only a reference.) What made each job special was it's own unique way to instill a purpose of it's role. Now I'm not going to list them all, just a couple.

I. Paladin - Most plainly put was it's purpose was to distract the monster's attention and take the damage so it doesn't run rampant on the rest of the squad. It could also heal itself, but was never directly related to a White Mage generally because MP and actions dictated his role of keeping emnity.

II. Warrior - Not at first, but down the line's, a Warrior's purpose was to deal critical damage to the enemy and help defeat them. Now also, like the Paladin, it was also played with the sub job Ninja.(Not stating Ninja. It was a freak in XI and can't be placed.) A Warrior never resembled a Ninja, only implementing a couple abilities from the Ninja(Utsusemi, and Dual Wield) to further it's place as a DD.

III. Thief - Now this one has a unique purpose in itself. Illusion. It's purpose for, not all, but many a great deal in terms of group work was to give the illusion of emnity to another. That, as well as it's very high evasion, were sole purposes of these jobs.

Now I know what you're thinking, a lot of these traits could be shared. I know! What I'm trying to get at is that this current implementation has a very loose restriction as to what abilities and traits can be shared. A Warrior could give away his Berserk ability, but did it mean that the one who used it as a sub job would gain ALL abilities? No. Only up to a certain point.

If any of this seems rather hazey, I'm truly sorry. I'm just trying to show my side of the story. We need a firmer grip on abilities and traits that can or can't be crossed over to another class.

I know what you're saying, but improving the armory system so that it can facilitate players into making those classes is better than removing altogether and substituting it for those classes.

The classes in FFXI and any other game are about balance and sacrifice. A Paladin sacrifices its DD abilities in order to be a better tank. So if there was a way to simply apply something like a "Paladin template" to your character which gave your character more defense but less attack, then it could exist within the confines of the armory system.

It's not mutually exclusive is what I'm trying to say.

And back on topic (i.e., back to what the OP was saying), im still not in favour of changing the name of the classes to the names of roles because that still doesn't make sense.

[Kimahri]

I know what you're saying, but improving the armory system so that it can facilitate players into making those classes is better than removing altogether and substituting it for those classes.

The classes in FFXI and any other game are about balance and sacrifice. A Paladin sacrifices its DD abilities in order to be a better tank. So if there was a way to simply apply something like a "Paladin template" to your character which gave your character more defense but less attack, then it could exist within the confines of the armory system.

It's not mutually exclusive is what I'm trying to say.

And back on topic (i.e., back to what the OP was saying), im still not in favour of changing the name of the classes to the names of roles because that still doesn't make sense.

Never said anything of scraping the entire armoury system. Just needs some redefining features to make things less of a big ole pot of scrambled eggs.

Also I haven't even been talking about the OP. I think changing names won't change anything. That's like going from Nazi to Neo-Nazi. Same shit, different diaper.