How would you feel if they scrapped the current "classes"?

[Kimahri]

I think you've gone insane...

I don't know why you're holding that article up as though it's something we all have to answer to. But anyways, I think what they're trying to say is that you can change your class, and also switch roles too. Someone earlier mentioned how they can change class to gladiator, but also change their roles between tank and damage dealer. I'm pretty sure that's what the article is referring to. You can change both class, by switching weapons, or role, by switching up abilities.

But you should go back and read my whole post because you obviously need to. But I'm not surprised you didn't read it, you never read any of my posts. If your responses to them are anything to go by, that is.

Psst. Look up above this post....I think you'll notice I did write about your whole post.....And, um......Yeah....There you go again reading something and thinking they meant something different. If they didn't want to compare the two as the same, they would've said different statements about the two. Even so. If your role is tank, wouldn't you automatically assume their talking about the Gladiator class?

You know what's so funny is that I can say whatever I want with any facts I lay at your feet, and you'll basically try to switch them around in your favor. Now. I will go ahead and show you what I mean by what they would've done if they meant that class and role were two different things. "In Final Fantasy XIV, the Armoury System is how players and characters will be able to change their current class, or assume a different role in the group." Did they say this though? Nope.

Oh I think I'm done now. Maybe instead of just making an argument out of this I'll do the exact same thing you do.....Say the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over.........and over!


Edit: And look at that! Another post from you with absolutely no points of counter defense to your theory with a rationalized approach! Thank you again, Gifthorse, for proving my point once more!

[gifthorse]

Psst. Look up above this post....I think you'll notice I did write about your whole post.....And, um......Yeah....There you go again reading something and thinking they meant something different. If they didn't want to compare the two as the same, they would've said different statements about the two. Even so. If your role is tank, wouldn't you automatically assume their talking about the Gladiator class?

You know what's so funny is that I can say whatever I want with any facts I lay at your feet, and you'll basically try to switch them around in your favor. Now. I will go ahead and show you what I mean by what they would've done if they meant that class and role were two different things. "In Final Fantasy XIV, the Armoury System is how players and characters will be able to change their current class, or assume a different role in the group." Did they say this though? Nope.

Oh I think I'm done now. Maybe instead of just making an argument out of this I'll do the exact same thing you do.....Say the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over.........and over!


Edit: And look at that! Another post from you with absolutely no points of counter defense to your theory with a rationalized approach! Thank you again, Gifthorse, for proving my point once more!

Well the only reason I have to say things over and over is because it obviously doesn't sink in the first time. Regardless of how you want to read into that article, which for some reason you believe holds any weight in this discussion, the fact remains that most of us consider the armory system to be a way for us to build our own jobs.

We consider the armory system as a pool of skills and abilities from which we are able to define our own roles. We make a distinction between class and role for the reason that a class is the building blocks for players to build their own role.

The crux of this debate has nothing to do with how I interpret that article, but instead what you believe about the class/role debate. You don't form a distinction whereas I do.

It's a simple argument of definitions. And until you realise that, I stand by my previous statement that you will never understand.

Look, I even had to spell that out for you too.

[Kimahri]

Holy Hell! You know what, I take it back. I will respond back to your whole thread. You want to know why I have to ignore your points of view? It's because the first time I heard it I told you why it doesn't work. I do believe others said the exact same thing to you, but hell you chose to ignore them as well. So why are you stating the same garble over and over again?

I'm looking through your post and you keep using class and role as two different theories all together. Well I'd hate to burst your bubble, but I think the post above this just cleared that mess up......Actually, that would be the third post since the third time is the charm for you. Class and Role are exactly the same thing.

Now your post regarding that there are no jobs in FFXIV....Well that's a fact......Because they're called Classes now, Dopey! Classes are also called Roles! Just think I better keep it in here at least five times a post now so it sinks in, Alabama Pete. Advanced classes do not need to be integrated into a game that hasn't formed it's own spine yet.

Now.....When you talk about a class specializing as a blm......I hope to God you're talking about a DoM class......It would seem stupid that you could specialize as a blm in a DoW class. And again no class, or role, should have all the abilities of the other classes. That's just stupid. "Look, mom. I'm a blm with a shield and I just used protect three, berserk, and holy avenger on myself!" (Hint I'm not really using proper XIV terms.) I still do not see how this makes the blm, "Special" if it's using everyone elses abilities.

And hey....What about the basic classes? Do you mean to tell me that SE should just have them there just for the sole fact that you have to level them without actually WANTING to use them? Just something you HAVE to do to give that BLM it's abilities from everything? And if I pick the ability cure, what ability is getting nerfed? Something you don't want to use? Something that doesn't matter in the first place?

I'm not ignoring your posts, Dumbo the Elephant. I'm posting comments about how your idea's would work. Why don't you do me a favor and scroll back some and try and enlighten me on some of my threads over making the classes, or roles, unique? Point out some flaws with at least some form of logic so I can scratch those idea's out to make new ones? Seems like I've been trying to point out the flaws in your system, but YOU ignore it and re-post it every five other posts. Just zip it, Donald. Your theories are questionable at best, and you can't fully understand them unless you read it three times over.

P.S. Don't worry, Gifthorse. I'm not angry over you or anybody else. I'm just stupified over the lack of intellect when it comes to discussing idea's and potential merges of opinions. It seems you want it either your way or the highway. Some things I agree with you on, others I don't. So it's not me who ignores you, it's you who ignores anyone who disagree's with you.

[gifthorse]

You'll never understand.

[Lamhirh]

Khimari. If someone think different than you its no valid point to insult them. Role is not somethig your class forces you do. Want to be tank, than oput all your points in vit, take tanking skils from all of the classes ( or more - specialisations ) and you have your role.

for damage dealing, I mainly play as archer. For solo i very like to use bloodbath skill ( maruder) and few lancer skills.

I the whole i feel the current system needs some tweaking, but is awesome. In particular cures myh need for having 5 gazillion alts to play all aspects of game. Now I only need to carry gazillion weapons and armors in mybackpack to switch at will.

[darkstarpoet1]

i have to agree with lamhirh and gifthorse here. in our nm battles we usually have multiple thm and con in the party but they have their own distinct role the same as the gla's. we usually have a thm for debuffs a thm for nuking in br's and one healing. that's one class but it has 3 different roles. we have a con healing and usually another thm that is buffing the party and healing in between. those are roles they play from within their classes. my role is a 50 pug that deals damage and since i have resurrect because i have leveled my thm up also i resurrect my allies that are on the front line since it's easier to take me out of the battle for a few seconds to get my fallen ally up than it is to bring a mage close enough to die. that is my role in the party. my class is pug but my role is different in the battle. we also have one gladiator that is main tank so has abilities set to tank while the other uses incap moves. that is just a few things i see when i see roles in the party. just because you have a class does not mean you will always fill the same role inside the party.

i am not trying to start an argument, but just sayin that just because we are a certain class does not make our roles set in a given situation.

[Kimahri]

i have to agree with lamhirh and gifthorse here. in our nm battles we usually have multiple thm and con in the party but they have their own distinct role the same as the gla's. we usually have a thm for debuffs a thm for nuking in br's and one healing. that's one class but it has 3 different roles. we have a con healing and usually another thm that is buffing the party and healing in between. those are roles they play from within their classes. my role is a 50 pug that deals damage and since i have resurrect because i have leveled my thm up also i resurrect my allies that are on the front line since it's easier to take me out of the battle for a few seconds to get my fallen ally up than it is to bring a mage close enough to die. that is my role in the party. my class is pug but my role is different in the battle. we also have one gladiator that is main tank so has abilities set to tank while the other uses incap moves. that is just a few things i see when i see roles in the party. just because you have a class does not mean you will always fill the same role inside the party.

i am not trying to start an argument, but just sayin that just because we are a certain class does not make our roles set in a given situation.

Now I see what you're saying. I'm not going to start an argument with you, just show you a point or two. What you're saying about what a THM does with nuking and debuffing I have absolutely no problem about it what so ever. Since it's only one of two mage classes, I don't mind a limit to the cure. Sacrifice is basically all Thaumaturge needs. I don't see why it would also need a Conjurer's cure if it has one of it's own? Things along this line I'm in total support for.

What I don't agree with is the fact that people can pick and choose from all the abilities to settle into their custom class. I've seen a damn Thaumaturge solo a hard NM without near the difficulty it took Avesta in XI to kill Genbu. It took Avesta 2 hours to kill that damn thing.....What I'm trying to say is that if there are no restrictions to the abilities being used by every class, then down the line it'll come accustomed to make a near-perfect class. Even if you use Gifthorse's "Nerf ability" concept, people will still choose the best abilities out of the pack.

My concept was in line with a few others in this thread. Make the access of certain abilities to be class specific. I'm not saying all abilities. You can still use abilities like ferocity and that Marauder ability that lets you syphon HP with the next attack. I don't agree that your pugilist can use raise. That's one ability that'll cripple the Conjurer. (It is Conjurer, right? lol) Right now it basically feels to me that if I'm playing Pugilist, I'm also playing Marauder/Lancer/Gladiator. And in your case, Conjurer. I can't say Archer, because that class has a bow. lol

[Seikninkuru]

Now I see what you're saying. I'm not going to start an argument with you, just show you a point or two. What you're saying about what a THM does with nuking and debuffing I have absolutely no problem about it what so ever. Since it's only one of two mage classes, I don't mind a limit to the cure. Sacrifice is basically all Thaumaturge needs. I don't see why it would also need a Conjurer's cure if it has one of it's own? Things along this line I'm in total support for.

What I don't agree with is the fact that people can pick and choose from all the abilities to settle into their custom class. I've seen a damn Thaumaturge solo a hard NM without near the difficulty it took Avesta in XI to kill Genbu. It took Avesta 2 hours to kill that damn thing.....What I'm trying to say is that if there are no restrictions to the abilities being used by every class, then down the line it'll come accustomed to make a near-perfect class. Even if you use Gifthorse's "Nerf ability" concept, people will still choose the best abilities out of the pack.

My concept was in line with a few others in this thread. Make the access of certain abilities to be class specific. I'm not saying all abilities. You can still use abilities like ferocity and that Marauder ability that lets you syphon HP with the next attack. I don't agree that your pugilist can use raise. That's one ability that'll cripple the Conjurer. (It is Conjurer, right? lol) Right now it basically feels to me that if I'm playing Pugilist, I'm also playing Marauder/Lancer/Gladiator. And in your case, Conjurer. I can't say Archer, because that class has a bow. lol

You seen a THm take a hard NM because one ability they have is pretty OP, so instead of fixing the ability... limit the system? Is that what you're saying? The point is the 'class' doesnt define your role the abilities you equip do. Sorry to say there aren't many roles in roleplaying games, just flavor the role in which you choose(Tank, Melee DD, Ranged DD, Magic DD, Magic Support, Melee Support, that's a few I'm sure others would add things like debuffer/controller). The tools are there to make the "role" you want exactly how you the individual want to play it. I have yet to join a group that demands you have a specific set of abilities equipped.

Why shouldn't a hand to hand combat user be able to equip a rez? When I play my gladiator it's much different than my marauder and much different than my puglist(which is the most fun of all of them imo).

[Kimahri]

You seen a THm take a hard NM because one ability they have is pretty OP, so instead of fixing the ability... limit the system? Is that what you're saying? The point is the 'class' doesnt define your role the abilities you equip do. Sorry to say there aren't many roles in roleplaying games, just flavor the role in which you choose(Tank, Melee DD, Ranged DD, Magic DD, Magic Support, Melee Support, that's a few I'm sure others would add things like debuffer/controller). The tools are there to make the "role" you want exactly how you the individual want to play it. I have yet to join a group that demands you have a specific set of abilities equipped.

Why shouldn't a hand to hand combat user be able to equip a rez? When I play my gladiator it's much different than my marauder and much different than my puglist(which is the most fun of all of them imo).

Well this one is I want to combine two things from yours and Darkstarpoet1, but I don't know how to multi-quote. Now what you're saying is that you haven't joined a group that demands a specific set of abilities. Darkstar is basically saying that if he leveled THM & CON to 50 then why can't he implement those abilities into his 50 PUG? Here's where I join the two with some points.

Down the line...It's not a question of if but when will people start asking for you to level certain classes to obtain those certain abilities to integrate in your role? Also is what if people don't really want to level those classes just for specific abilities? Should they be scorned because they'd rather level only a few classes, such as myself? Wouldn't this basically seem along the lines of a WAR/BLM in FFXI? If you don't have the right abilities, I don't want you in my group. This seems to me that it's going to come down to who levels the most jobs just for certain abilities.

[darkstarpoet1]

personally i would never scorn anyone because they dun choose to level multiple classes. there are many people that i consistently play with that only have one battleclass and will not level another. they mostly do crafting or gathering in their spare time and only do battles when we do nm fights. that to me is perfectly fine to play that way. i only leveled thm because my ls is low on high ranked thm's so i decided to level it to help out when needed in that class. i agree that you should not get scorned if you only have one high class, but remember how long it took to level that one class and realize there are some of us that has had the time to do that multiple times. in my group one high class is all that's needed for nm's and we take alot of mages that are only 20's because we need all the extra healers we can get our hands on. i don't mind anyone leveling one class even if every other class was still sitting at 0 sp earned. i just hate that i took the time to do it and others that don't have the time or want to level other classes wants to take away the time i spent.

personally i think there should be alot more abilities in the guilds and less of this mind over matter stuff. you could learn the mind over matter while leveling and put more of the abilities in the guilds to buy. if you want to see crap go look at the thm guild and see the junk offered there. that is home base for that class and has absolutely jack to get as far as good abilities. that's where the class specific abilities should be is in the guild not abilities that are used for other classes. tell me why a thm would want to move its stats from int mind or pie to srt and vit. that's the kind of stuff you buy at the thm guild.