Something is missing.

[KaedrianLiang]

In place of individual class customization, you get more variety of classes, each with much deeper skill usage and more complex rotations than any other mmorpg to date. It's at the point where we are running out of keybinds and mousebinds.

[LandricFrey]

I've started a few threads on the subject which had lengthy discussions. Too many people think that everyone would look up the best builds and choice is an illusion, blah blah blah. Which I nearly believe now. These days people don't seem to play for fun, they play to reach the end as fast as possible so they can be bored that much quicker. When looking up fights on youtube is considered the norm, you just know this generation of gamers is in trouble.

Anyway, personally I love the idea of job customization. You have my one little like. Good luck with the thread and fighting off the subsequent flames.

[Yeldir]

Yeah, I miss talent and attribute specialization systems, too. I understand why they've fallen out of favor, though. While it is true that you could occasionally find some novel allocation outside of the meta for your specific playstyle - sometimes even to a tiny advantage, if you were compensating for a weakness or playing on a personal or guild strength - for the most part it just made bad players worse by giving them the freedom to create a character that would be broken even in the hands of a professional gamer.

[Kosmos992k]

While I enjoy skill trees and customization, in the end it always just devolves to "if you don't have THIS EXACT SETUP you aren't worth taking in the party".

I don't see how that can be the case outside of raiding groups.

I'd rather forget about that here and leave customization like that in my single player games.

I kinda thought customization was one of the main draws to MMORPGs?

[Yeldir]

I don't see how that can be the case outside of raiding groups.

I kinda thought customization was one of the main draws to MMORPGs?

The claim that it degenerated to every player with the exact same build is bullshit, anyway - one of the excuses developers use to avoid balancing an intricate talent system, and one of the excuses players have to justify their anger at not understanding their own class well enough for their experiments with it to yield anything but disadvantages.

It led to builds revolving around a certain goal, but even in hallmark games like WoW which were notorious for this very kind of thing, you'd see plenty of, say, fury warriors with different talent distributions depending on whether or not they had access to a shaman or a paladin, whether they got lucky with 2h drops or 1h ones, and so on.

[Welsper59]

I've started a few threads on the subject which had lengthy discussions. Too many people think that everyone would look up the best builds and choice is an illusion, blah blah blah. Which I nearly believe now. These days people don't seem to play for fun, they play to reach the end as fast as possible so they can be bored that much quicker. When looking up fights on youtube is considered the norm, you just know this generation of gamers is in trouble.

Anyway, personally I love the idea of job customization. You have my one little like. Good luck with the thread and fighting off the subsequent flames.

It takes having played previous games (or a lengthy period here) and looking back on the community (and yourself) to really come to that conclusion and fully understand it. Skill trees and other such customization options that impact actual performance is an illusion of freedom in MMORPGs. I mean, people will chew you out for using very simple OGCD macros here that barely impact output, such as the beginner's macro for BRD that only has Misery's End and Bloodletter in it. Even if you intend to only do, at most, normal mode raids and never go into Savage and most Extremes, people on these boards will still see you as trash for even thinking about using a barely harmful macro lol. That 10-50 DPS loss is going to wipe your Neverreap party because you're using a macro! Don't do it!!1! People are stuck in a one-track mind when it comes to the freedom of choice and playstyle. These parties are generally not willing to compensate or adapt.

In theory, stat/job customization is great. Just like how, in theory, devs could create content and not bother with punishments or rules that centers around players behaving, trusting that no one will exploit or cheat in any way... dat Wolves Den and Triple Triad win-trading fiasco might have a say on that one. The thing is, with the stat/job customization, it falls into cookie cutter builds because of clueless perspectives or because people want to know the best way to do something. People don't want to be a burden upon others, so they'll look for what makes them perform the best. People want to be strong, so they'll look for what makes them so. Two perspectives for the same side of the coin. Both results in cookie cutter, hence the illusion of freedom. Although a different situation, just look at the meaningless stat customization we have already lol. For most players, it's all in on one stat alone. Heck, even if those were to include secondary stats, it'd be the same thing... all in on what is the best option. Players will typically look at someone not spec'd "properly" as some sort of personal offense because they look at it as this player is intentionally making things harder for everyone else. Making a villain out of someone for a stupid reason, albeit one that does have an impact in a very small amount of content (Savage, etc).

[Stupiduglytaru]

Bring back subjobs and apply weaponskills tied to weapons.

[Verius_Nox]

If this were a single player game, I'd be totally on board, but this is multiplayer, and the general community won't accept anything but the best possible build for their team.

[Zer0]

Or reason I want this is so I have the option to not be a Bow Mage. WM basically kills bard. It was nice in theory but in practicality it causes bugs with action timing and just makes it into another turret mage playstyle. It's essentially Black Mage with a bow now. It's one of the most disliked aspects of Heavensward across the board.