What happens when.....

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

From the time I've recently spent on the Official Forums and on some popular streamers' twitch channels, more and more people are waking up to the fact that band-aid applications don't fix a job suffering from a sucking chest wound (by the way, unless you have a strong stomach, don't look this up on an image or video search.) We as users need to keep hammering this point in each and every thread to get the point across. Increases in enmity and potency, unless astronomical, will not fix the lack of synergy a job has, not only with itself, but other jobs as well. A huge amount of people only focus on what's happening now when instead they should be thinking of the next 8 months to 1 year.

Case in point: I was actually farming Blood Dragons today and thinking of how my suggestions would come into play damage dealt wise. I figured the hardest I'll be able to hit for (all strength accessories) would be around 3200 on a critical hit with my combo finisher Royal Authority AND with Fight or Flight active at the time. I can't even hit for HALF the damage of other tank jobs when I'm trying, even with adding my suggested damage increase. It's no wonder Paladins are literally performing at half the potential...I remember a time in 2.x when Paladin and Warrior did competitive damage as off tanks and somewhat competitive damage as main tanks. This clearly isn't the case anymore.....

I'd also like to, again, thank you guys for keeping this thread relatively clean and respectful.

EDIT: Obviously with better equipment will come higher numbers, however, that scales with other tanks as well.

[Launched]

Case in point: I was actually farming Blood Dragons today and thinking of how my suggestions would come into play damage dealt wise. I figured the hardest I'll be able to hit for (all strength accessories) would be around 3200 on a critical hit with my combo finisher Royal Authority AND with Fight or Flight active at the time. I can't even hit for HALF the damage of other tank jobs when I'm trying, even with adding my suggested damage increase. It's no wonder Paladins are literally performing at half the potential...I remember a time in 2.x when Paladin and Warrior did competitive damage as off tanks and somewhat competitive damage as main tanks. This clearly isn't the case anymore.....

What? Are you seriously comparing a single Royal Authority hit to a single Fell Cleave hit? You have to be joking. PLD doesn't have the burst WAR has, and it never had it. PLD's damage is far more sustained: FoF is slightly weaker but lasts 50% longer and has no drawback. Your autoattacks are fast and Sword Oath adds a lot of unnoticeable damage to them. You have 2 DoTs: one that's very strong and another that's off GCD. The only "burst" PLD has is Spirits Within. Their sustained damage in Sword Oath with Storm's Eye/Dancing Edge is competitive with WAR, and their Shield Oath damage was NEVER competitive.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

What? Are you seriously comparing a single Royal Authority hit to a single Fell Cleave hit? You have to be joking. PLD doesn't have the burst WAR has, and it never had it. PLD's damage is far more sustained: FoF is slightly weaker but lasts 50% longer and has no drawback. Your autoattacks are fast and Sword Oath adds a lot of unnoticeable damage to them. You have 2 DoTs: one that's very strong and another that's off GCD. The only "burst" PLD has is Spirits Within. Their sustained damage in Sword Oath with Storm's Eye/Dancing Edge is competitive with WAR, and their Shield Oath damage was NEVER competitive.

I will politely offer my opinion that you are wrong. I've watched countless videos from reliable sources that prove your statements wrong when concerning competitive damage when performing raid mechanics and on paper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTsVLBMAgsE
http://imgur.com/cEIx1I4
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/120318-Paladin-VS-Warrior-Battle-of-the-Off-Tank-DPS

I also used to be in a raid group where the leader would embarrass and belittle me if I didn't even get in the ballpark of his numbers since he had ACT up constantly (keep in mind I, and others, left him in the dust because of that attitude and made our own FC.) I very intimately knew then and know now what Paladins face in the matter of where the job lacks what it needs. We do peanuts for damage, have an ability kit that does not have synergy concerning the direction we're forced, we can't make up for our own weaknesses, and furthermore we can't even help others make up for what we lack.

[Launched]

I will politely offer my opinion that you are wrong. I've watched countless videos from reliable sources that prove your statements wrong when concerning competitive damage when performing raid mechanics and on paper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTsVLBMAgsE
http://imgur.com/cEIx1I4
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/120...e-Off-Tank-DPS

What are these links meant to show? All I'm seeing is that OT parses were similar between PLD and WAR in 2.x, and that was the case when I compared my DPS to a PLD in my FC back around i180. The video also shows that a PLD in Shield Oath most of the time gets heavily outDPSed by WAR in Defiance most of the time. They just support what I said: competitive OT DPS, PLD gets destroyed in MT DPS.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

What are these links meant to show? All I'm seeing is that OT parses were similar between PLD and WAR in 2.x, and that was the case when I compared my DPS to a PLD in my FC back around i180. The video also shows that a PLD in Shield Oath most of the time gets heavily outDPSed by WAR in Defiance most of the time. They just support what I said: competitive OT DPS, PLD gets destroyed in MT DPS.

Funnily enough from the recent parsing I just did, this isn't the case anymore. I'm actually flabbergasted by how similar Warrior and Paladin DPS is in tank stance (I can attribute it to the second DoT and Royal Authority combo.) We were both in similar equipment down to the same slaying accessories and we were both at similar DPS (we only used our dps abilities.) The script has actually been flipped....he crushed me in DPS by more than 300 in our respective DPS stances instead. What this shows is that you aren't right when you say it's the same now. We just offhandedly had a level 54 warrior do a random fell cleave that hit for 2k with no slashing debuff....you're wrong on both accounts now and your DPS must have been while you were still learning. There's no possible way off tank DPS is comparable unless that Paladin greatly outgeared you.

EDIT: If you'd like to question the ability of that Warrior I had parsing with me, he's in Dancing Mad with Hadley Brightfoot if that means anything. The guy obviously knows what he's doing and even he admits that in order for a Paladin to now match a Warriors off tank DPS something wrong has to happen in the form of stats, equipment or ability.

[RapBreon]

Case in point: I was actually farming Blood Dragons today and thinking of how my suggestions would come into play damage dealt wise. I figured the hardest I'll be able to hit for (all strength accessories) would be around 3200 on a critical hit with my combo finisher Royal Authority AND with Fight or Flight active at the time. I can't even hit for HALF the damage of other tank jobs when I'm trying, even with adding my suggested damage increase. It's no wonder Paladins are literally performing at half the potential...I remember a time in 2.x when Paladin and Warrior did competitive damage as off tanks and somewhat competitive damage as main tanks. This clearly isn't the case anymore.....

MNKs rarely crit above 4k; DRGs can crit for above 6k more frequently. I guarantee you DRGS don't do 50% more damage.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

MNKs rarely crit above 4k; DRGs can crit for above 6k more frequently. I guarantee you DRGS don't do 50% more damage.

I couldn't agree more, the numbers have been fudged at some point. When you take into account all the data logging services showing that Paladins aren't even close to doing competitive damage in Sword Oath/Shield Oath while having a Ninja or Warrior assist them in DPS/Aggro management, in addition to the issues with Paladin kit, the only thing you can do is shake your head in wonder.

[RapBreon]

I couldn't agree more, the numbers have been fudged at some point. When you take into account all the data logging services showing that Paladins aren't even close to doing competitive damage in Sword Oath/Shield Oath while having a Ninja or Warrior assist them in DPS/Aggro management, in addition to the issues with Paladin kit, the only thing you can do is shake your head in wonder.

See, I'm not sure you understood my post. Or you're employing the old 'look like I'm agreeing, but not actually agree to trick them into agreeing with me!'.

Because I was pointing out that comparing maximum crits as a way to compare average DPS is...flawed. You don't seem to be acknowledging that.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

See, I'm not sure you understood my post. Or you're employing the old 'look like I'm agreeing, but not actually agree to trick them into agreeing with me!'.

Because I was pointing out that comparing maximum crits as a way to compare average DPS is...flawed. You don't seem to be acknowledging that.

Oh, my apologies for the misunderstanding. In light of that information I feel some clarification on my side is needed, the whole 'half the ability' thing applies to the toolkit Paladins have. I have problems adequately saying what I need to in that it makes sense in my head but not on the screen. What you guys don't see is that original post took me an entire day to actually put together. It's a problem I'm working on and as you can see I still need practice.

[RapBreon]

Oh, my apologies for the misunderstanding. In light of that information I feel some clarification on my side is needed, the whole 'half the ability' thing applies to the toolkit Paladins have. I have problems adequately saying what I need to in that it makes sense in my head but not on the screen. What you guys don't see is that original post took me an entire day to actually put together. It's a problem I'm working on and as you can see I still need practice.

Oh no worries, I was just seriously confused by your response. Tis no problemo.