What happens when.....

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

As I and many other people have stated the core of PLD needs to drastically change. Personal mitigation is a moot point in a game where the developers are obviously biased against healer DPS, where fights have scripted burst damage that are planned for, and where all tanks have the ability to survive every encounter.

This leaves the tank with utility. DPS in FF (and all MMOs) is a MAJOR utility. PLD needs to be brought up to speed in this category and this category only, the question is in which way it needs to be done. Whether it be increased DPS through raid buffs (i.e Battle Litany-esque move), major debuffs placed on the boss to significantly decrease raidwide damage (Storms Path), or massive personal self heals (if Clemecy was a HoT) the core of PLD's "I can mitigate slightly better and easier than the other tanks" design is what needs to change.

At the end of the day nobody give a shit how much less damage was taken by one tank to the next as long as they both survived.

[Syzygian]

As I and many other people have stated the core of PLD needs to drastically change. Personal mitigation is a moot point in a game where the developers are obviously biased against healer DPS, where fights have scripted burst damage that are planned for, and where all tanks have the ability to survive every encounter.

This leaves the tank with utility. DPS in FF (and all MMOs) is a MAJOR utility. PLD needs to be brought up to speed in this category and this category only, the question is in which way it needs to be done. Whether it be increased DPS through raid buffs (i.e Battle Litany-esque move), major debuffs placed on the boss to significantly decrease raidwide damage (Storms Path), or massive personal self heals (if Clemecy was a HoT) the core of PLD's "I can mitigate slightly better and easier than the other tanks" design is what needs to change.

At the end of the day nobody give a shit how much less damage was taken by one tank to the next as long as they both survived.

Maybe I have too much faith in the devs (and I don't think its wholly misplaced, as tanks balanced or not, FFXIV is a hell of a game), but I don't think its outside the realm of possibility for them to make PLD's defensive/support utilities enough to outweigh their lack of DPS. Looking at DRK and WAR, both of whom wield big motherclucking two handed weapons, it makes no sense from a design standpoint for PLD to be "brought up to speed" with them in DPS. Now look at BRD and MCH. In the hands of equally skilled players neither of these will outdps, say, a DRG or MNK. But their utilities still make them valuable and even mandatory. I think they could do the same with PLD (a bit less than mandatory for balance purposes, but still extremely useful). They would need to completely unravel PLD's entire toolkit to turn them into what you're suggesting, as they already have an excess of abilities designed for defense or support that are just too situational but also too integral to the job's design. Since they've already dug this hole they need to try and make these things useful before they just throw the design out with the bathwater and turn PLD into a DRK clone or a WAR clone. Now raid DPS as opposed to personal DPS I could potentially get behind, but even then you're left with a sizable chunk of their toolkit just unused because nobody cares, as you said, whether you survive with 100 HP or 10000, 10 TP or 1000, as long as you survived and cleared the fight (a problem in design in and of itself but I'm in the minority in thinking that so I won't open that can of worms).

And for the record, since I have not been above advocating some minor DPS increases for PLD, I don't necessarily support PLD being "homogenized" or whatever with DRK and WAR (assuming those two are homogenized but even that I don't really buy, since their DPS comes from very different sources and the managing of MP on DRK and stacks on WAR just doesn't feel the same. Its like comparing classical to techno), and the reason for that is easily apparent in the changes that already came to PLD from 50 to 60. They tried to expand upon its defensive/support abilities in very half-hearted ways, and then, 180 degrees in the other direction, gave them a DPS focused combo tree that draws direct parallels to 2.x WAR and now DRK as well, but is wholly inefficient in the context of a rotation, since the most potent one is a DoT (not spammable as a reward for proper play, like DA Souleater) and the next most potent one is pure damage (no assistance in utility or enmity like Storm's Eye or Butcher's Block). So essentially, they tried to homogenize a bit in one area, which has backfired completely, and then differentiate it in another, existing area, which has proven next-to-useless. They need to pick one or the other and run with it or the job is going to continue to feel watered down and "boring".

As it stands now, I am actually enjoying lvl 60 PLD less than lvl 50 PLD. The simplicity of the whole 1-2-3 1-2-3 Halone combo that people QQed about so much in 2.x freed you up to make efficient and regular use of PLD's other utilities without letting DoTs or debuffs fall off or losing enmity or any other such nonsense that you have to put up with now. It felt totally comfortable and even second nature, while playing lvl 50 PLD, to look after my party and throw a SS here and there or Cover somebody that was taking a beating. Now its simply cumbersome, counterintuitive, and conflicting. There are reasons that abilities like that weren't given to WAR in those days, and one of them is because the job had a (relatively) complex rotation and actual mechanics to manage.

Shuffles over to FoF tooltip... It says physical. Mother...!

@Connor: One day I'll catch you on the linkshell and we're going to talk about Tanks and it'll be a hell of a time. Please look forward to it :P

Bwahaha, yes indeed!

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

Snip

I think you are missing my point. What I am trying to say is that PLD utility needs to be changed/increased. Right now the only tank utility in the game falls into 3 categories that matter: Personal DPS, Raid DPS buffs, and Raid Mitigation. Nothing outside of those three things matters at all on a raid level. Designing a fight that better suits PLDs "tools" basically means making the fight have physical busters, physical raidwide damage, and trash mobs that make the shield useful. The problem with that is that IT WON'T MATTER. People will still bring WAR for the increased DPS, Path, and the fact that they mitigate physical moves just as well as magical moves. People will still bring a DrK because guess what, it does more DPS, can survive everything in an encounter, and has utility with Reprisal and Delirium Blade.

The core problem with PLD is that nobody gives a shit about how much a tank can mitigate. It is literally a non-issue. This is due to the tank meta revolving around scripted burst damage, weak AAs, defensive stats being alonst worthless, and what utility a tank brings to the table.

So once again we need look at the three things that MATTER: Personal DPS, Raid DPS increases, and Raid Mitigation.

The only area that makes sense for PLD to be buffed is in Raid DPS incease (Think Ninja). This would go a long way in alleviating the tanking problems. Particularly the PLD+Drk party composition problems.

If you make PLD the Raid Wide DPS buff + High personal mitigation + Low Personal DPS tank and DrK the Raid Wide Damage Taken Debuff tank with moderate personal DPS then there would be some incentive to run DrK+PLD.

The problem that we will continue to see with the 3 tank system is that parties will generally be taking whichever composition allows for the most DPS.

So until we see the day when WAR+PLD, WAR+DRK, and PLD+DRK all equal comparable raid DPS; one tank will continue to be left out.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

snip.

I'm overjoyed at how you guys are handling the situation right now and from what I'm seeing the majority of us are in agreement on the overall issue that Paladin faces; that issue is it needs SOMETHING other than the "I survive hits better" philosophy that the developers have forced onto the job. Paladins have an excessive amount of defensive cooldowns yet it doesn't possess the ability to overcome its weaknesses by using them. I can relate this to Psychology in such a way of "Classical Conditioning."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

'Classical conditioning occurs when a conditioned stimulus is paired with an unconditioned stimulus. Usually, the conditioned stimulus (CS) is a neutral stimulus (e.g., the sound of a tuning fork), the unconditioned stimulus (US) is biologically potent (e.g., the taste of food) and the unconditioned response (UR) to the unconditioned stimulus is an unlearned reflex response (e.g., salivation). After pairing is repeated (some learning may occur already after only one pairing), the organism exhibits a conditioned response (CR) to the conditioned stimulus when the conditioned stimulus is presented alone. The conditioned response is usually similar to the unconditioned response (see below), but unlike the unconditioned response, it must be acquired through experience and is relatively impermanent.'

If you apply that quote in such a way that it relates to Paladin, you'll realize that we're not rewarded with anything for doing our job other than survival. The more I think about it, THAT'S the reason so many are feeling empty when playing Paladin. We just survive and that's it. There's no intangible emotion like Joy or Pride involved after taking a huge hit because we know we're still doing peanuts for damage and surviving only the same as the other two tanks.

[Syzygian]

If you make PLD the Raid Wide DPS buff + High personal mitigation + Low Personal DPS tank and DrK the Raid Wide Damage Taken Debuff tank with moderate personal DPS then there would be some incentive to run DrK+PLD.

This sounds good but it would almost make DRK the de-facto MT across any content unless the raid dps buff PLD gets is specifically gated behind them tanking something. If PLD got a buff like that that was usable regardless of stance you would assuredly get the most bang for your buck putting the DRK in the MT slot every time since they top the DPS charts in that role if they are allowed to stance-dance liberally.

weak AAs

Living Liquid called saying something about his 11K AA crits, I think its for you.