What happens when.....

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

Interesting ideas OP. In terms of the war 2.0 argument, that was mainly due to the player base. I knew plenty of warriors who MT T5 in my fc, and cleared it with mainly darklight (ilvl70). The problem being that it was a little to luck/latency based in the timing of inner beast to recover quickly the damage you took from death sentence. It also helped if you had good enough white mages to toss stoneskin on prior to it as well (which was done regardless if you were pld or war). Funny thing is the "reactive" tank part of war hasn't changed, even after 2.1.

One thing I always noticed about SwO was the animation of gripping your sword in two hands. That always made me wonder why they didn't make you put your shield away while being in it. Thinking along those lines, same with Shield Oath. It would be nice if the character actually held out their shield in font of them, in more of a real battle "stance". All of the tank stances sadly to me are a joke animation wise, because nothing animation wise even changes lol. (Idle animations aren't really that hard to create, just look at how many were made as mods for Skyrim..and they look far more impressive than what we got here lol)

Along these lines, I think I'd be neat to see certain abilities work one way in ShO, and a different way in SwO. Such as shield swipe becoming a different skill, with a completely different purpose/effect. I realize that probably not easy to do, and it would be easier to just make it similar to how warrior has done it. Albeit inner beast in defiance to fell cleave in deliverance. So unless the tooltip said like (while in ShO does this, while in SwO does that).


The only negative I can see with your idea regarding the stacks is that if pld was supposed to be the "simple" tank, then this would add alot more complexity to it. Since you'd then have to watch your stacks.

I personally wish Paladin was actually more "paladin like". Which as it is known, paladin is actually just knight in Japanese. Based on the story (no spoilers obviously), we are just wandering sultana sworn knights. So when I say more "paladin like", I mean quite a bit more white magic. Sure Pld can use cure, stoneskin, protect, and clemency. But outside of clemency, none of the white magic has been tailored to the actual job itself. For example plds in FFXI had more of a defensive use from white magic, along with some small offensive spells (enlight).

What's really odd, is I feel pld in PVP feels completely different. Since you got extra moves to soak damage from your party, buff your parties defense, and skills like "spirits within" become extremely nasty. I also still miss rampart being an AOE from 1.0...

I'd first like to thank you for offering your opinion in a constructive and polite way, Xyphon. It means a lot to me that you and others take the time to comment.

In regards to your post, I agree on all fronts. Paladins are perceived as the "easy" class because the developers have forced that notion onto the playerbase and so long as that's the case no one will allow anything other than tweaks to be talked about. As I've said, a large amount of people want Paladin to be more involved and complex (at least from what I see on my server, on Twitch, on the forums, etc.) I also agree with you on the matter of making a Paladin what the rest of the world considers it to be in regards to ability and direction. I do realize that there is some cultural influence concerning the job and I must respect them on the matter; at best the only thing I can do is ask to be more than just a knight.

Again, I'd like to thank you for taking the time out of your day to speak to both myself and others on the matter. I wish you a happy evening and may good fortune find you.

[Donjo]

...

If you cannot comprehend that changing the cornerstone of a job's playstyle to be keyed around the building of stacking buffs that will later be spent for some benefit is a homogenization of playstyle, then there is no need for any further discussion and you should ignore the rest of this post.

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Yes, cross class skills exist. However, they are all weaker on the jobs they don't belong to, which prevents them from functioning exactly the same as you claim. They are commonly powerful enough on their native jobs that they're still brought along specifically for that skill. Virus is the most notable example here.

Yes, some classes have some similar skills. This solves the simple problem of allowing any party composition to have at least some simple necessities. But you will notice that not every job has the exact same set of tools. This is one thing that should be avoided, as the possession of some tools over others helps to provide a job its identity.

For a Tank, being forced to have a Healer carry you is far worse than being forced to have a DPS carry you. The former is a literal failure at your ability to perform your role to the most basic of specifications. The latter is just a misstep in a single aspect that can only be worried about once the basics are down. A Tank who cannot Tank needs to have his entire kit looked at. A Tank who is behind on DPS just needs a few numerical adjustments. Melee in general were behind in DPS once. They got a small boost and were fine. BLM was behind in DPS once. They got a small boost and were fine. SMN was behind once. DRG was behind once. Did they whine over "band aids" that would ultimately fail to fix a deeper rooted problem? Nope. That band aid was all they needed, because the only problem that existed was a small cut.

So, finally... yes, homogenization exists. This is why it is so important to try and prevent it from happening further. What you are suggesting would only exasperate the issue if implemented. The only jobs right now who don't have a stacking/persistent buff that requires some skill to manage are Bard, Astrologian, White Mage, and Paladin. Too many jobs have this already and are thus more similar in playstyle to their contemporaries in the same role. If you're so desperate to mess with Paladin, you should find a method that will give it more of its own identity in playstyle.

Meanwhile, I shall trust that SE knows that they're doing and that this band aid coming in 3.1 that you're so afraid of will make Paladin equally relevant again just as such moves have successfully revitalized jobs in the past time and time again.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

If you cannot comprehend that changing the cornerstone of a job's playstyle to be keyed around the building of stacking buffs that will later be spent for some benefit is a homogenization of playstyle, then there is no need for any further discussion and you should ignore the rest of this post.

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----------

Yes, cross class skills exist. However, they are all weaker on the jobs they don't belong to, which prevents them from functioning exactly the same as you claim. They are commonly powerful enough on their native jobs that they're still brought along specifically for that skill. Virus is the most notable example here.

Yes, some classes have some similar skills. This solves the simple problem of allowing any party composition to have at least some simple necessities. But you will notice that not every job has the exact same set of tools. This is one thing that should be avoided, as the possession of some tools over others helps to provide a job its identity.

For a Tank, being forced to have a Healer carry you is far worse than being forced to have a DPS carry you. The former is a literal failure at your ability to perform your role to the most basic of specifications. The latter is just a misstep in a single aspect that can only be worried about once the basics are down. A Tank who cannot Tank needs to have his entire kit looked at. A Tank who is behind on DPS just needs a few numerical adjustments. Melee in general were behind in DPS once. They got a small boost and were fine. BLM was behind in DPS once. They got a small boost and were fine. SMN was behind once. DRG was behind once. Did they whine over "band aids" that would ultimately fail to fix a deeper rooted problem? Nope. That band aid was all they needed, because the only problem that existed was a small cut.

So, finally... yes, homogenization exists. This is why it is so important to try and prevent it from happening further. What you are suggesting would only exasperate the issue if implemented. The only jobs right now who don't have a stacking/persistent buff that requires some skill to manage are Bard, Astrologian, White Mage, and Paladin. Too many jobs have this already and are thus more similar in playstyle to their contemporaries in the same role. If you're so desperate to mess with Paladin, you should find a method that will give it more of its own identity in playstyle.

Meanwhile, I shall trust that SE knows that they're doing and that this band aid coming in 3.1 that you're so afraid of will make Paladin equally relevant again just as such moves have successfully revitalized jobs in the past time and time again.

The fact that cross class abilities function at lesser degrees on more than one job, fitting perfectly within the definition of homogenization, is to be ignored because they are at lesser degrees? You are literally arguing that I shouldn't have abilities that not even closely resemble other jobs in the way they function yet you ignore the logical inconsistencies you are overlooking. If you argue that something even close to similar should not be added, you have no place to allow anything that does function exactly the same on multiple jobs "at a lesser extent."

So the part where Warrior and Ninja have the same slashing resistance down debuff is to be ignored as well? Or can it be allowed because only two jobs share the ability....what about Monk and Dark Knight? How about the issue of Scholar and Astrologian having the ability to buff Spellspeed and Skillspeed?

Oh, let's discuss the issue of having a healer carry you now that I remember in order for a Paladin (and the party) to survive in A4S they need a Monk to apply a damage reduction ability so they don't outright die. Warrior (and the party) is in the same position in that regard as well in that it requires the Dark Knight to do the same.....where do you draw the line on what a "carry" is, Donjo? On the matter of DPS only needing band aids....they don't have the jobs that tanks do. We're expected to tank, do DPS, self-heal and if need be protect other people while doing our job, especially when it concerns bleeding edge content clearing. I also noticed you never provided a counter argument in regards to MTQ's video I linked.....

Yes, trust Square-Enix, who has released Astrologian, and then completely revamped its abilities because players noticed it wasn't powerful enough. Trust in Square-Enix to alter Bards in such a way that people call them "bowmages." Trust in Square-Enix to buff Monk DPS despite the fact that a large portion of those who play Monk feel it too lacks certain qualities. Yes, trust Square-Enix, who released Ninja and then had to outright nerf it because it became a DPS Tank that could not be hit and could do massive amounts of damage. Trust Square-Enix, who allowed Warrior to be carried by healers (despite video proof directly contradicting you.)

Perhaps I will ignore the rest of your posts.


EDIT: Actually, Dragoons "whined" because their Magic Damage Mitigation was for some reason worse than every other job in the game so they needed more than a band aid placed on them. They also had the issue of Jump Animation Lockouts. So yeah, it was a deeper rooted problem.

[bardaboo]

Ooookay.. as pld in a group pull i.e ex# 1
Why are you cycling through all the mobs? Circle of scorn flash a few times not just once or twice then attack the lowest hp mob. Flash again. Circle of scorn. Or learn to mark the mob u want dps to attack. This isn't a PLD issue it's a YOU issue, sorry to say

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

Ooookay.. as pld in a group pull i.e ex# 1
Why are you cycling through all the mobs? Circle of scorn flash a few times not just once or twice then attack the lowest hp mob. Flash again. Circle of scorn. Or learn to mark the mob u want dps to attack. This isn't a PLD issue it's a YOU issue, sorry to say

If you only focus on one enemy while a Summoner or Black Mage is in the party, in regards to their abilities, they will steal aggro from you. Flash and Circle of Scorn do not provide enough of a barrier if they are determined to rain down death. You as well seem to shift blame onto me yet you do not ask me if I can observe them using aggro limitation abilities. Regarding the issue of why I rotate through enemies to establish a firm lead on aggro, again, I do this in order to cover as much distance as I can in preparation of when they move to the next target. I also don't have the simple task of just attacking. At times I shield bash to allow the healer to DPS or help them in recovering my HP through stopping incoming damage. I also ask that you please re-read the posts concering aggro generation as I never allude to actually losing aggro. I notice DPS gaining on me and that's the issue I have. Let's also not forget the issue that even if I mark targets, the DPS are not required to attack that target and often times do not. In fact, I've seen forum threads where users have outright said they make sure to attack a marked target last.

In the future I ask you to please have more faith in the community when it pertains to their job choice. I've noticed a trend of people automatically assuming people in general are terrible when instead they should be treating that person with firmness, fairness, dignity and respect. I thank you for participating in the forum thread nonetheless and wish you a good day.

[Violette]

snip

If you hate the dev's so much......don't play it.

It's hard to tell how a class in development will compare to a class on release, because dev's might play a class very different to players do for progression.

I.E. the machinist, which was considered to be absolutely shite. Yoshi-p's response was gitgud, and upon gitting gud the class has not seen many changes nor complaints about it's playstyle.

Both sides have right and wrongs, and gear scaling isn't something SE can predict optimally, which is why these small buffs happened.

If you honestly expect a dev to get it right on release every time.....you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

If you hate the dev's so much......don't play it.

It's hard to tell how a class in development will compare to a class on release, because dev's might play a class very different to players do for progression.

I.E. the machinist, which was considered to be absolutely shite. Yoshi-p's response was gitgud, and upon gitting gud the class has not seen many changes nor complaints about it's playstyle.

Both sides have right and wrongs, and gear scaling isn't something SE can predict optimally, which is why these small buffs happened.

If you honestly expect a dev to get it right on release every time.....you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

It wasn't my intention to imply I hate them if it seemed that way. I've made great friends because of what Square-Enix has done and I have to thank them for that and I also agree with what you're saying in its entirety, they certainly have a difficult job. I'm just not the type of person to blindly follow while disregarding trends in hopes that they get a job right with no feedback or suggestions. I'm glad that you're here to acknowledge that they have something good going on too, if they didn't you wouldn't be telling me to politely shove it before I make clarifications lol. I respect you for that.

[Donjo]

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All you have managed to prove this day is that you have no idea what homogenization actually is. Yet, even though you failed so spectacularly at figuring it out you defied my simple instruction and tried to read the rest of that post without the proper knowledge to understand it. What an exemplary example of the sheer pretentiousness that surrounds yourself and this thread.

As you have failed to satisfy the requirement I previously laid out, there shall be no further need for discussion as I stated. You are truly a lost cause, sir.

[Faeon]

Well Yoshi-P already stated in one of the interviews, that the PLD is not going to get reworked, like they done with the WAR. I suspect they will make small changes like a enmity increase on RoH stuff like that. The bottom line about PLD, is that they bring nothing that benefits the raid for current content. This has become a big thing now, because they have added another tanking class, that is more suited for A3S/A4S. The current progression system is kinda flawed, where certain JOBS are guaranteed a spot, no matter what.

I will always have WAR as a tank out of the other two, so if I had to pick between WAR & PLD or DRK & PLD, I would pick WAR & PLD or WAR & DRK. The new expansion brought out the flaws of certain jobs, where focus on a particular job due to it being the favourite or it fitted into the story better,made the design better.

PLD had been given lackluster set of tools, that would be used where exactly? and for what purpose? The current state is, that the the player base is moving to every job must be able to-do things equally well, as the next. So if my WAR is doing 1000 DPS, my PLD should do 1000 DPS too. This will be the case if they had to rework the PLD and make his DPS on par with WAR, in terms of AOE and Single Target. But then you going to get the complaint a PLD is not a DPS tank he should not being doing that amount of DPS threads.

I think fixing it is going to be hard work, due to the way the game design has gone, where certains jobs just got things that were not really thought of in a raid way, but only that it fits into the story and the ffxiv universe.

[Syzygian]

Paladins still have fight or flight, which with proper use allows them a rough 10% increase over time in damage.
Paladins also have Goring Blade (one of the most powerful dots in the game), as well as Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn for their fluff damage.

I get you've got massive erection to hate on Paladins, but you're just being facetious now. Goring Blade's total potency is one of the highest in the game, Circle of scorn is over 500 ppm (since you're fond of it) and Spirit's within is at best 600 ppm with added utility.

It will never get close to the damage of a warrior, because warrior is the dps tank. Dark Knight has a lot of buffs, but dark knight potencies are lower than the paladins for gcd moves.

Paladin are not incomplete, they're simply a bit low in some numbers and need to be adjusted.

@Rawker: The det change isn't too bad, since the crit change is a massive benefit to SwO

Whoa there. I think you need to pass the salt back over this way. You've had enough.

It sounds more like you have a massive erection for PLDs to take such an objective post so personally. In no way did I intend that post as an insult to PLD, I was simply stating facts.

The fact that Goring Blade is tied to a combo (never been a fan of combo based DoTs, frankly) means you can't favor it like say, a DRK can favor DA Souleater (MP providing).
CoC is nice too and so is Spirits within but these still just leave massive gaps as I explained in very precise detail earlier.

Goring Blade, CoC, and Spirits within are great, yes, but they don't stack up to either of the other tanks. And FoF is also great, but again, it doesn't add up. DRK passively has 100% uptime on +15% and WAR has the same in Maim with +20%, both more in proportion to their tank stance penalty than FoF, and then in addition to that, both have a crazy amount of off-GCD DPS and/or offensive cooldowns.

They do feel incomplete, as they have these holes in their DPS layout and utility, and no real mechanic to manage alongside it. Now, if we're gonna make PLD the defensive/support tank, the defensive utilities they have need -massive- buffs to make them viable reasons to stop DPSing and powerful enough to actually translate into increased DPS mileage for healers, etc. I actually really want to see PLD succeed, it just needs to pick a direction, or the devs do rather. In 3.0, they added a bunch of fancy, relatively powerful combo abilities that still are not stacking up with DRK/WAR because they do not have enough personal offensive utility backing them (things like Berserk, DRKs oGCDs, etc.) and instead have a lot of half-hearted defensive utilities that are so situational as to be almost useless.