HQ and NQ stat gap needs to close (Both should allow max stats with materia):

[Katlyna]

Another way of putting that is: it would make crafting less challenging and lower the relative value of achieving HQ. That's sort of "Everyone gets a trophy," and not much fun in my opinion, like putting an "Easy button" on Savage content.

After all, it's dead simple to NQ any recipe you qualify to craft, and you're proposing that all the skill and luck that is required to obtain HQ just gives two extra materia slots? I prefer the current system: a challenging system where overcoming risks is nicely rewarded.

Right but... exactly how skill based is HQing an item? Don't get me wrong a more skilled crafter has and knows a number of tricks. But NQ items are not the result of a failure of skill. They're a failure of extremely bad RNG.

With that said, my proposal would work best with a LQ, NQ, HQ... where LQ is what current NQ is (basically worthless and 20 ilevels lower). And the bar for that would be something like reach 50-60% quality at least.

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But you are right and Alistaire said it best "This is dangerously close to being a request to just get rid of HQ's." Don't get me wrong I enjoy skill based progression and a world where HQ has meaning and NQ is annoying but acceptable. But if you recall during 2.x crafting with four star Artisan and foragers gear (not including Mainhand/Offhand/Chest) NQ could be maxed out with materia. But making NQ was none the less frustrating, but the good still had value. It was maybe 20-30% of the HQ value (which on some servers was under material prices later in the 2.x cycle). But IMO this was not a bad place for crafting to be at. And I think most people would concur crafting was healthier during the 4 star patch cycles.

Right now the difference between NQ and HQ is just unacceptable if you ask me.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

Instead of going for new ideas of having more materia slots, I say we should just get back to the original proposition of closing the gap between NQ and HQ. I mean, look at this:

26 Craftsmanship difference and 8 Control???!!! That's just ridiculously much. If you NQ-ed it at 80% HQ rate, it's functionally useless since it's no difference from an HQ i150.
What if, the difference in Craft is like 12 and difference in Control like 4. Then at least NQ still has a chance to function. Right now NQ is nothing more than a pure glamor item.

[Ksenia]

Instead of going for new ideas of having more materia slots, I say we should just get back to the original proposition of closing the gap between NQ and HQ. I mean, look at this:

26 Craftsmanship difference and 8 Control???!!! That's just ridiculously much. If you NQ-ed it at 80% HQ rate, it's functionally useless since it's no difference from an HQ i150.
What if, the difference in Craft is like 12 and difference in Control like 4. Then at least NQ still has a chance to function. Right now NQ is nothing more than a pure glamor item.

I'd chalk that up more to the stupid amount of time it takes to get it. NQ is suitable for materia destined spirit bond but who wants to convert something that took 3 weeks to get? That's how you end up with materia costing millions of gil

[Silverbane]

Right but... exactly how skill based is HQing an item? Don't get me wrong a more skilled crafter has and knows a number of tricks. But NQ items are not the result of a failure of skill. They're a failure of extremely bad RNG.

Some people prefer chess, others prefer poker.

Crafting is like poker: a lot depends on the cards you draw, but a skilled player can somewhat compensate for bad luck.
Some people choose rotations that minimize the impact of bad luck, others choose ones that create more opportunities is for good luck. And you can adapt in mid-craft if you know how.

And the RNG does not seem that bad. I've only crafted six L60 2-Stars tools so far, plus the required number of 2-star mats, and only 2 mats have come out NQ. None of the tool have. Someone else reported doing 20 HQ crafts without any NQ. So I don't see the odds being all that bad. But the stakes are pretty high - and I like it that way. YMMV.

[Silverbane]

Right now NQ is nothing more than a pure glamor item.

I think that's an overstatement. NQ i170 can be melded higher than HQ i150, after all.
Hopefully we'll be able to convert i170 to tier 5 materia, but that's only wishful thinking right now.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

I think that's an overstatement. NQ i170 can be melded higher than HQ i150, after all.

Well, I don't think it's an overstatement. Here is my HQ i150 with melds:

As you can see, we're already using so many Tier IV already. Yea, you can meld the NQ i170 higher than the HQ i150, but at what cost? ...Especially when you know that even if you use 2x Tier V, you still can't max the cap, which means it'll still be inferior to the HQ i170 and the traded i180 by a lot... You might just end up with a very similar meld as the HQ i150 (except CP materia, of course).

Let's say you use 1x Tier V (+11 Craft), 3x Tier IV (+6 Craft, +6 Craft, +4 Control) and 1x Tier III (+3 Control). Then you would have spent millions, adding 23 Craft and 7 Control.
The total stats on the NQ i170 will be 222 Craft, 69 Control, 3 CP.
My HQ i150 above has 216 Craft, 62 Control, 3 CP... and in the end, I added 5 more Craft with a Competence III, so the final stats are 221 Craft, 62 Control, 3 CP.
Unless that extra 1 Craft & 7 Control is a game changer, I might as well just stick to my HQ i150, and avoid wasting all those materia on the NQ i170. And if I'm avoiding those expensive melds, then the i170 won't ever even have a chance to function. It'll be nearly as weak as the HQ i150.

(IMO, it's not even worth using a Tier V unless it's a share gear...)

[raela]

I'd love more meld slots on HQ.. Haven't bothered to go past unmelded shared 60 gear because I don't like buying materia, so overmeldind IV's for an overall "temporary" set hurts. I'm holding out to see what 3.1 brings while leveling battle classes. RNG is too nasty and I don't want to deal with a NQ.

[MN_14]

Crafting is like poker: a lot depends on the cards you draw, but a skilled player can somewhat compensate for bad luck.

And the RNG does not seem that bad.

The odds of an NQ are really low if you craft carefully and aren't bottle-necked by excessively low CP. At 440 CP, I had 2 NQs out of around 30 2* materials and at 455 CP, I've gotten no NQs out of around 40 crafts in total (materials and final crafts). This gives me an overall HQ yield of roughly 97% (no NQ gear pieces or tools) and a 100% HQ yield since my CP upgrades. Sooner or later, I should be getting more NQ materials because not all of my crafts are at 100%, although the majority of them are. Fortunately, the final crafts are usually not a problem at all because your starting quality can be fairly high.

That said, I do agree that the stats of an NQ tool/gear piece should probably be closer to the HQ stats to give them some value. Ideally, I think a player should be able to meet the 3* requirements with a setup consisting of mostly melded HQ gear, with allowances for one or two melded NQ pieces.

[Katlyna]

And the RNG does not seem that bad. I've only crafted six L60 2-Stars tools so far, plus the required number of 2-star mats, and only 2 mats have come out NQ. None of the tool have. Someone else reported doing 20 HQ crafts without any NQ. So I don't see the odds being all that bad. But the stakes are pretty high - and I like it that way. YMMV.

So functionally speaking NQ vs HQ doesn't matter to me at all. I HQ 99% of my items and what I don't HQ my wallet can handle. The problem I have with the system is how do I advice others to enter into this mess when the stakes are so high? Right now all I can honestly tell others getting into high end crafting, is take it easy, practice lots, review your rotations, etc, etc. But at the end of the day, if you're looking to go to the very end it takes a huge amount of dedication and runs serious risks until you under stand the system.

Problem is with the stakes so high almost no one makes it through the gate to this mess of red scrip crafting. I think many things need to change to get the system working for more people.

Don't get me wrong I've been crafting for a long time now and enjoy the risk, the large piles of gil on the line, and knowing my skill is well up to the challenge. Unfortunately very few of us are at this point though, and its due to a rather flawed system ;-/

[cgbspender]

It's really weird because they wanted to: Make crafting more accessible, reduce the need for cross-class skills

And that's a great success ! You can craft top-end gear without using a single post-50 skill. They're all junk.