HQ and NQ stat gap needs to close (Both should allow max stats with materia):

[TechnoTechie]

No, she is justifying.

i170 is i170.

stats make it easier but in terms of iLevel, the NQ is still getting the same treatment.

Let me give you and example.

I use an HQ main, level 52 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56. I can't get it over 17% Quality (I have tried this)
I use an NQ Main, level 55 tool to craft a level 55 recipe at level 56, I can get it to 100% Quality. (look at the 52 HQ main hand and the 55 NQ - the stats are the same)

I did this with Weaver.

Our character is a mannequin. Everything is tied to gear level now. Stats are important and while it is obvious you want as much as you can get at end game, if you end up in NQ blue, you will still be capable of executing all recipes for the 60 level, even the 3 star we are eventually going to get.

Challenge accepted; and a pointless one at that. With this craft, I can confirm that it's strictly stats, and that you might need to reconsider the rotation that you're using:


I crafted an Aurum Regis Texture Hammer (recipe level 60) and level 60, with an HQ level 52 main hand and a level 53 off-hand (for good measure), because according to your logic, I shouldn't be able to get anywhere near 94% quality, let alone 17% considering the 8, yes, 8 whole levels of difference, between my tools, and the level of the craft. If you think that I should try again with a level 60 belt and rings (those are the two-star green items that you see in the picture), then I can, but that invalidates your point that it's the tools' item level that are the important part.

P.S. I didn't cheat by using HQ materials; all of the materials used in that craft were normal quality.

P.S.S. I just went and tried a level 57 recipe (Titanium Battleaxe -- I don't trust my stats to do a level 60 craft) with the level 52 main hand and level 53 off-hand, using my old artisan i60 gear from level 50 (I kept it for nostalgia purposes), minus accessories and belt (I used unmelded holy cedar HQ accessories, and a holy rainbow apron HQ melded with a piety III materia for spirit bonding purposes). According to your item level theory, I shouldn't be able to get anywhere close to 17%? maybe? I was able to push the quality all the way up to 81% with enough steps to finish the craft. and it came out HQ.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

SNIP

LOL, we did the same thing! XD

[TechnoTechie]

LOL, we did the same thing! XD

great minds think alike

[Ksenia]

According to your item level theory, I shouldn't be able to get anywhere close to 17%? maybe? I was able to push the quality all the way up to 81% with enough steps to finish the craft. and it came out HQ.

According to 'my theory' I couldn't get above 17% - this is more to do with having to devote a lot of dura to Careful synth II's.
I did this using Hasty because I tried the basic synth rotation minimum cp rotation for doing 1 star 50's and I couldn't. It fell apart at 7 Careful Synth II in order to clear the bar. Still, I don't mind standing corrected and I will modify this to a degree. (I am learning here, I am not trying to be a know it all) The objectives are to figure out what I am doing.

- One thing I thought about after I logged out, if they follow pattern and so far they have, they might send us down the false requirements path they did in 2.0 and force us to HQ in order to graduate gear. (like Lucis gear) In such case, we are going to HQ, like it or not. Alternative, the turn in for lucis will void the need to HQ as long as you can HQ the tertiary items required.

- Not to seem like I'm being anal here but you just got a level 60 Aurum Regis Texture hammer 98% HQ with 52 and 53 tools and you want me to believe I 'need' HQ at level?

- My correction: The trouble is, you had enough gear at 60 to increase your gear check but I know they average and with a 52 main, 53 off hand, your average level should have tanked so yes, that puts my 'theory' to rest.

- final word from me: They already told us we won't need HW going forward. In any 4.0 expansions, we will be free to enter without requisite. As such, I don't need to focus on this content and have shifted focus on leveling alts. Rather than fixate on the BiS of the moment, I am abandoning HW to prepare for 4.00 and thank SqEnix for that. The quest wall I avoided in 2.0 is keeping me out of HW and I'm still avoiding it like a plague. It left me no other crafting content but Alt building.

TY for confirming I am just under stat. Craftsmanship high enough and I don't need HQ anything. Just enough mats to RnG my way through everything. Back to voiding HW with a quest wall, I don't need to deal with red script. I got locked out. Master III as well for that matter. Sorry if it seemed like I used you but well, I did.

[Sibyll]

I agree that melding is getting excessively more expensive as stat gaps get higher and higher. I think the materia system in a poorly, lazily designed system. I don't particularly agree with the idea of perfect quality. If they introduce perfect quality then nothing will have changed: PQ will replace HQ as the new gold standard and NQ/HQ will be considered failures.

The issue with the current HQ system, that the stat gaps have made blindingly obvious, is that NQ is more or less another way of failing a synth. A synth that was filled to 98% HQ and a synth that got to 1% HQ should not have any potential to produce an identical piece. Something as simple as 100% HQ representing max stats and materia being used as a post process fix to get it to 100% in a manner akin to the Novus weapon would work. If they use the Novus template then the stat values on the materia wouldn't matter. So maybe a 1% HQ piece would need like 25 Craftsmanship materia (5 of each tier), but at 20% it needs only 20 (5x I-IV) and maybe at 80% it'd just need 5 tier Is. Once again similar to how the Novus scrolls require higher tiers the higher up the stat goes.

If they must keep the materia system in then at the very least something like this would seem more logical. Frankly, I'd rather them scrap the RNG melding system complete and just treat materia like gem socketing in any other competently designed MMO. Any piece (even token gear) can be socketed with gems. Then instead of balancing crafted gear around materia melding they can just have crafted gear with their own fixed stats that are directly comparable to token gear without requiring min/max melding to make the missing stats.

And ffs what is the point of having an ilvl if the stats on the gear is completely unrelated to the ilvl on the piece. As you pointed out some how HQ i150 White gear have essentially the same stats as NQ i170. You'd think the ilvl should change with quality and the addition of materia?

[Katlyna]

I don't particularly agree with the idea of perfect quality. If they introduce perfect quality then nothing will have changed: PQ will replace HQ as the new gold standard and NQ/HQ will be considered failures.

Offering of a "perfect quality" by itself would not fix anything but would be an interesting thing to add IF and ONLY IF the base problem itself were fixed. The base problem itself being the stat gaps between NQ and HQ are unacceptably large, and the materia system at this point is complete garbage with nearly un-obtainable V materia. And the rest of the materia slowly getting harder to acquire as more people stop crafting. At one point during 2.x I found the materia system to be brilliant when materia was widely available, multiple teirs of crafting were available, and different iLev+strict materia melds set crafters apart in teirs.

Now it appears SE wanted to shift away from materia melds being key and simply time invested in tokens being what would push crafters into future tiers. The problem being the time cost became not crafting for weekly scrips but spending hours gathering materials. This then all accumulates into a single item attempt, where a NQ currently appears to be a failure from everything we know about required stats and what a large difference between max and min means (in a single item slot).

These issues all just take what could have been an interesting way to tier crafters (time spent crafting/gathering tokens each week) into a horrible 90% gathering system followed by a single crafting attempt where you desperately hope all your time doesn't go flying out the window.

Don't get me wrong I don't want a trivial system either where the difference between NQ and HQ is non existent. But making the difference something very important (requiring much stricter melds or less guaranteed melds) vs what very well be a non functioning item to reach three star requirements is something I think the crafting system is in desperate need of fixing.

[Ksenia]

tl:dr

In another attempt to make a game 'hard' they have taken rigidity to the extreme and now have nowhere to go with it.

we theory craft because we can't afford to experiment in game and we are left spinning our wheels because it's all leading to the same conclusions. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

SqEnix want to have their cake and eat it too. So do we.

[TechnoTechie]

According to 'my theory' I couldn't get above 17% - this is more to do with having to devote a lot of dura to Careful synth II's.
I did this using Hasty because I tried the basic synth rotation minimum cp rotation for doing 1 star 50's and I couldn't. It fell apart at 7 Careful Synth II in order to clear the bar. Still, I don't mind standing corrected and I will modify this to a degree. (I am learning here, I am not trying to be a know it all) The objectives are to figure out what I am doing.
...
- Not to seem like I'm being anal here but you just got a level 60 Aurum Regis Texture hammer 98% HQ with 52 and 53 tools and you want me to believe I 'need' HQ at level?

No one said anything about not needing HQ. If you made that assumption, then I think you might be mistaken. The issue is that if I can craft an HQ i150 item and have it be as good as an i170 item, then why bother crafting an i170 item when you can make the i150 HQ for 1/10000th of the cost? Of course the HQ'd i170 would completely dwarf the HQ i150 in stats, and currently (as the OP stated) NQ means that the item is at less than full potential; i.e. it's not the item level that it says it is if it's normal quality. ... But if you're taking 7 careful synthesis IIs to complete progress then that's where your HQ gear will be "needed", or you would meld your lower level gear to compensate. Are you perhaps still using a chest piece that's under level 52? (because it sounds like you're using level 45-49 gear if it takes 7 careful synthesis IIs... that might be something to fix first)

- My correction: The trouble is, you had enough gear at 60 to increase your gear check but I know they average and with a 52 main, 53 off hand, your average level should have tanked so yes, that puts my 'theory' to rest.
...
TY for confirming I am just under stat. Craftsmanship high enough and I don't need HQ anything. Just enough mats to RnG my way through everything. Back to voiding HW with a quest wall, I don't need to deal with red script. I got locked out. Master III as well for that matter. Sorry if it seemed like I used you but well, I did.

If you take a look at the second craft I did, then item level isn't even a factor in that. Your stats might not be the issue, but your rotation could probably use work. RNG did help me a lot, but that was because I underestimated the craft and thought I could HQ with 10 stacks of inner quiet. apparently I needed 11, and the innovation that I was hesitant to press. Yes, I did HQ something with under leveled gear, but that's because the game was designed for you to be able to progress step-by-step. If I were to try to HQ the level 60 craft with the level 52 gear, the game would have told me no, and to upgrade to at least 55 HQ or 57 NQ(which is basically the same item level as 54-55, because it's lowered potential from NQ)

And if you're going to attempt the next expansion without heavensward gear, then I don't imagine it would be anywhere near plausible. Have fun NQing the 99 pieces of gear before you randomly get your HQ -- We crafters are gearing specifically to prevent requiring the massive amount of materials it would take to do that.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

According to 'my theory' I couldn't get above 17% - this is more to do with having to devote a lot of dura to Careful synth II's.
I did this using Hasty because I tried the basic synth rotation minimum cp rotation for doing 1 star 50's and I couldn't. It fell apart at 7 Careful Synth II in order to clear the bar.

So far, with the exception of some furniture, no items in this game should require more than 6 steps for completion. It if takes 7 CS II to complete it, you have to change something. There are a number of ways to rectify this problem. You may:
(1) gear up better to get more craftsmanship
(2) eat a Baked Onion Soup, which adds a lot of craftsmanship + CP
(3) have Ingenuity II active when you use CS II
(4) use Name of [element] + Brand of [element] 1 or 2 times before you use CS II. The brand will give a lot of progress and shorten the number of steps by a lot.
(5) use Rapid Syn under Steady Hand II to shorten the number of steps.
(6) meld some competence materia (but really, this is totally unnecessary before level 60).
Good luck!