DF Penalty

[Nyalia]

Saying "dodge all mechanics" to explain a fight where the boss exclusively uses AoEs with no indicator really doesn't help, you know. You could have said "DPS move to the side when the boss turns to face you" and "tank run away when he starts casting Swing or Swipe."

Language barriers can make that hard though, I guess =\

[hagare]

Language barriers can make that hard though, I guess =\

that's when you break out the mad auto-translate skills xD
I once explained the cerberus fight using all auto-translate words and apparently it got through judging by the number of commends I got afterwards.
well it's either that or they just felt sorry for me for trying to use auto translate to explain a fight >_>

[LunaHoshino]

Honestly, there is no reason why someone should be penalized for leaving a dungeon or trial after 30 minutes have passed. That's long enough to give the duty a good try, and at that point it should be clear that the party either does or doesn't have the ability to clear whatever it is they're in. There's a difference between "helping" and "beating your head against a wall" and sometimes you really do get stucks with groups that are the latter.

[Izsha]

Vote abandon. It's a thing designed for just that situation.

[Catwho]

Ahaha, tell that to the people who vote abandon A4 at the first wipe, or used to vote abandon WoD on the final fight after one wipe.

Sometimes groups just do not gel, but sometimes there's an honest mistake at play as well. What usually happens is someone requests a vote abandon after one wipe, the rest of the group declines, the person who initiated leaves in a huff, and the person who replaces them gels better with the group and we go on to a win.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease but it also means it was probably the one with the rust on it.

[Khanscott]

The last person that wanted to not heal 2 new people (my friends, properly geared/skilled for the content mind you) and myself through a dungeon finally ate the 30 min penalty about an hour after we AFK'ed next to him/her and started watching Red Letter Media videos on YouTube.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

It WAS 15 minutes in early 2.0, but people still abandoned parties because 15 minutes meant nothing to them until the devs doubled the timer. I also don't agree with giving people a free pass if they wipe a few times because it would either encourage people to be even more toxic if there's X wipes or people will become even lazier knowing if they screw up a few times, they can just leave without penalty and do it all over again in another party. It's getting rather silly seeing so many people trying their darndest putting in so much effort just to avoid a few minutes of sitting out of DF.

[Souljacker]

It WAS 15 minutes in early 2.0, but people still abandoned parties because 15 minutes meant nothing to them until the devs doubled the timer. I also don't agree with giving people a free pass if they wipe a few times because it would either encourage people to be even more toxic if there's X wipes or people will become even lazier knowing if they screw up a few times, they can just leave without penalty and do it all over again in another party. It's getting rather silly seeing so many people trying their darndest putting in so much effort just to avoid a few minutes of sitting out of DF.

Could you elaborate on exactly how this would make people *more* toxic? It seems like it would do the opposite. If you wipe a few times that player who normally would start talking trash because he knows he will eat a penalty for leaving\will troll and not participate until kicked\will purposely give the rest a hard time by pulling adds would just... leave. That would be the end of it.

I think you overestimate the number of people who are queuing for dungeons without the intention of actually doing the dungeon. Like I said before, you're getting rid of 1 troll, but at the expense of 10 legitimate players who should have every right to bail on a group that just doesn't mesh well.

There's ways to structure the queues without a bunch of overly harsh *punishments* but gosh, that's what this community likes I guess. It's no wonder there's so many complaints of toxic players in dungeons when literally the entire system is designed to make people as toxic as possible.

[RiceisNice]

...

It's mostly the tanks or healers that get this attitude because they have practically nothing to lose from bailing on a dungeon if they don't get a penalty to it, due to instant queues. DPS on the otherhand, are waiting for 25+ minutes to get their dungeon queue. If you were to allow them to leave without a penalty after dying a few times, what's stopping those individuals from purposely dying to trash pulls then calling it quits, and leaving the party stranded without a tank/healer. And in-progress tank/healers are a rarity unless you have someone in the FC/LS that's willing to come in; It's as good as abandoning the duty if you lose the tank/healer.

And there's been an increasing amount of these individuals from my experience, it's a lot more than I'd like to admit tbh even compared to the likes of WoW or a moba. I've actually had an encounter where someone couldn't vote kick because they had previously done it before in the same day for the same reason.

[Souljacker]

It's mostly the tanks or healers that get this attitude because they have practically nothing to lose from bailing on a dungeon if they don't get a penalty to it, due to instant queues. DPS on the otherhand, are waiting for 25+ minutes to get their dungeon queue. If you were to allow them to leave without a penalty after dying a few times, what's stopping those individuals from purposely dying to trash pulls then calling it quits, and leaving the party stranded without a tank/healer.

Nothing, but this is where I think again, people overestimate the actual number of trolls versus the actual number of people who need to get out of terrible groups. You're constructing these elaborate situations that aren't the norm. There's always going to be "that" dungeon that people don't want to do. Aurum Vale is "that" dungeon right now and even HAVING a penalty isn't stopping people from dropping right away. I was filtered into an in-progress one last week and they hadn't even done the first pull. As soon as more people were filtered, they dropped. Eventually the two of us left voted abandon and started over. So your logic falls short when folks already hate a dungeon enough to drop and eat a penalty.

For the troll concern about 'causing x wipes' - that's what vote kick is for. If you've got a healer not healing, you kick them. If you have a tank not tanking, you kick them. Neither eats a penalty in that situation, either, right? So what's the difference with letting someone leave a dungeon after the GROUP wipes x times and kicking them for behaving in a way you don't agree with? That player would have probably left quietly and not trolled the group for a vote kick. In either situation you are still down a player, but that could be solved by taking away the ridiculous option to choose whether we go in-progress or not. No other game has this option because they already HAD all these discussions a decade ago and came to the appropriate conclusion. It doesn't work. It leaves people begging FC to queue in progress. It makes a 'random' queue no longer quite so random.

Anyway, that's a whole different discussion. This change would help the OTHER 90% of people who don't want to wipe after wipe because the rest of the team doesn't gel well or doesn't care. I will never believe that someone should be FORCED to subject themselves to multiple wipes when other people can't get it together just because this community is so bent on making sure every aspect of the game has a punishment.

Remember, this isn't about removing the debuff. It's about making it a little more reasonable. 30 minutes is almost the entirety of the dungeon. With a competent group you'd be finished. With a group of bad players you could barely be at the first boss. Either way, you're already eating a penalty for wasting your time and queue time. Multiple wipes should trigger something in the code that says yep, there's an issue here and this player can leave *if they want to*. If they don't, then the discussion is moot anyway.

I think it would have the opposite effect you are worried about. If players know their tanks and healers aren't being forced to stay in a bad group, they will behave better and learn to freaking play.