Lets nerf WAR :D

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

How about taking it from someone who leveled all three tanks? Defense-wise it's not that bad. The job is built around active mitigation and some self-healing.

Damage-wise the job is OP. Largely because tank DPS has not been kept on a leash and instead is used as an element to differentiate the tanks (instead of using mechanics and gameplay like games with actually balanced tanks do). Utility does play a role as well, since Storm's Path is universally useful and that slashing debuff is very useful as well.
Sorry, but I'd rather PLD remain a traditional MMO tank instead of becoming a WAR clone. I mean hey, if you want to buff PLD DPS to WAR level while giving us our own version of Storm's Path plus a slashing debuff AND leaving the rest of our abilities and cooldowns alone, go for it. I do highly doubt something like that would happen, though.

Ooooookkkkaaaaayyyy..... So. I am going to take this one from the top and go really slow so everyone who reads my posts can understand. Full disclaimer before I start. I am an i200 PLD, i197 WAR, and i193 DrK. I have raided with all three tanks and have been around FF14 from 1.0. I have a VERY good grasp at tanking and MMOs in general and do not shy away from the fact that I will play the best possible tank for my static.

So the tank meta in FF14 is based primarily around scripted burst damage, scripted/timed mechanics, and DPS enrage timers. This means that when the tanks were being designed they were given (after patches and buffs) the ability to MT and OT every single encounter. So that being said each tank has the ability in some way to survive/effectively tank each encounter. So because the fights are based around actual enrages and not healer MP strain/drought personal mitigation is an absolute moot point. Anything more than bare minimum is a waste. This is very similar to VIT in this respect.

So what we are left with when looking at tanks is three categories of use: Raid DPS increase via debuffs, Personal DPS, and Raid Mitigation. Everything, and I mean absolutely everything, aside from those 3 categories is moot. So because the developers want each tank to be able to preform in the MT and OT role then each tank SHOULD possess some way to contribute to each of those categories. Currently only one tank does, which is the WAR. THIS DOES NOT MEAN WAR IS OVERPOWERED! It means that WAR is actually designed correctly for the current tanking meta of FF14. When looking at the other two tanks it is obvious that they are not very well designed. PLD offers absolutely nothing to a raid except ease of use (which if you are Savage raiding should not be something you care about), and DrK has so many shoehorned abilites it will make your head hurt trying to find a roll for them. WAR is so well designed in fact that SE needs to buff the two current tanks to be equally beneficial to their raid groups or they will wither away and die when LB gauges are a non issue for clears.

So once again, WAR is not overpowered. PLD and DrK are just horribly designed for the current (and past, and most likely future) of the tanking meta of FF14 and NEED to be buffed/redesigned.

[Syzygian]

stuff

So i know made a thread about nerfing war, but at least i didnt just straight-up shit-talk two whole jobs, only one of which needs any real help, like THIS guy.

You essentially, in that last paragraph, wiped your ass with PLD's 2.x tanking resume, and then pissed all over DRK's contribution to world first progression in the current meta. You must be stackin' dat parry cause Low Blows be procin'.

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

So i know made a thread about nerfing war, but at least i didnt just straight-up shit-talk two whole jobs, only one of which needs any real help, like THIS guy.

No, you are right. Lets just ignore the BLATENT flaws of PLD and DrK and, in fact, lets nerf the one very well designed tank down to their level so they can all be equally disjointed and clunky. Good plan brah.

[Syzygian]

No, you are right. Lets just ignore the BLATENT flaws of PLD and DrK and, in fact, lets nerf the one very well designed tank down to their level so they can all be equally disjointed and clunky. Good plan brah.

It sounds like you're really good at war and just bad at the other two, drk in particular. You're nuts if you think it has pld-level issues.

[RapBreon]

*dribbles onto T-shirt*

Sawreee smrt gui plz go slower

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

It sounds like you're really good at war and just bad at the other two, drk in particular. You're nuts if you think it has pld-level issues.

Where did I say that DrK has PLD level issues? I am simply saying that DrK has obvious design flaws that should be addressed. You are also getting away from your original point, which is to nerf WAR. Which is not a well thought out plan... Like at all.

[PheonixCain]

See... People like you make my brain hurt. WAR is not OP...

How are you going to, literally in the same post, say you dont use the other two tanks and don't understand them and then go on to say that WAR is overpowered?

See... People like you make my brain hurt too

perhaps there's some sort of misunderstanding, i have all three tanks jobs and yes i do play a lot of tank roles outside of raid. the part where i said "mainly WAR" was that i feel more comfortable playing war than the other two, it's very easy to stance dance as a war while drk has to watch mp and pally's dps stance number is not as impressive as the other two tanks, BUT i didnt say i dont like anyone of them or know nothing about them (and for raid purpose, i do have to learn every jobs spec even for those i dont play), i actually like all 3 of them and learn everything i cud before i started, it's just war cud make things like pvp or daily dungeon runs soooo much easier and faster. there's imbalance between them, u cant deny that.

and i also said i didnt like any of the ideas on this thread, i dont think those are the right ways to fix this imbalance

perhaps u shud read people's words when ur head is not steaming like this

[Ultimatecalibur]

If, instead of buffing WAR in 2.1, they nerfed PLD to 2.0 WAR levels, would everyone have been alright with that?

It would not have helped. The 2.0 Warrior problems were systemic to the Warrior not numeric like the current imbalance.

The 2.0 Warrior's survivabilty was based around heals influenced by outgoing damage rather than incoming damage. This caused the Warrior to be immortal until incoming damage exceeded the Warrior's ability to self-heal at which point the Warrior began to get easier and easier to kill as incoming damage increased and the self-heals were recovering a lower and lower % of the damage taken.

The current tank imbalance is mostly numeric and arguably caused by design flaws revealed by non-intended play tactics (stance dancing). Pure DpS stance parses put all 3 tanks in roughly the same area for base damage with only the slashing debuff causing a 10% gap in solo parses. Pure Tank stance parses will likely show similar close numbers.

[Brannigan]

WAR is just representative of how well every job in the game should be designed but aren't

Truth right here.

With Warrior it's clear the devs actually had some design goals: build stacks, switch stances, (nearly) all abilities should be useful as MT or OT. Even their "you-can't-kill-me" move has a second function of preventing knockback. It even gets good cross class abilities. The only problem warrior has is a UI issue with FC and Inner Beast not occupying the same button. Even still, it's easy to think of natural extensions to its ability set for the next expansion (your next move doesn't consume wrath, this move's crits generate extra wrath, etc).

Dark Knight has similar design goals but is implemented a bit worse: build MP, use dark arts, maintain darkside. DRK can't use its defensive abilities to build MP as off tank, but it does have some pretty good synergy within its ability set (blood weapon + physical off GCDs, Dark Dance + Reprisal + Low Blow, Dark Dance + Dark Passenger). Dark Knight has issues, such as Grit's high MP cost, but the only real hole in its gameplay is that it can't mitigate physical attacks as frequently as a warrior or paladin.

Paladin has no thought put into it. Stuff like Cover was tossed in there because "of course FF paladins have cover" without any reason to actually use it in a fight. They started to actually develop some gameplay in 3.0 but the cast time and cooldown of Clemency and Divine Veil respectively are way off. Goring/RA don't add to the capabilities of the class but were obviously needed. Sheltron is the only ability we got that I think is 100% fine, but it doesn't cover the gaping holes in the class.

I think posters like Kenpachi are right when they say that warrior doesn't need to be nerfed - for the most part. They certainly could reduce warrior's numbers a bit and they'd still be fine - I'm talking stuff like setting maim to 15%, though they don't really need to do this. They certainly should not touch how any warrior abilities function. Instead, they should focus on building ability interactions for dark knight and especially paladin. This involves fixing things like Shield Swipe, Bulwark, Tempered Will, Cover, Divine Veil, Clemency, cross class abilities, and adding additional effects to abilities based on our stance. This will create more complex gameplay - this is not a bad thing. Those of you who are super worried about paladin becoming more complex will likely be unaffected as these problems only show up on the high end anyway.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure the devs are just going to tweak enmity modifiers/damage numbers and call it a day. Paladin will continue to exist so that provoke/conva/awareness are provided to other tanks, and these problems will all show up again next expansion.

[kensatsu]

To be Honnest if anyone still not understand something so easy to understand XD, PLD and DARK want the war to be nerfed, the WAR want the PLD to get buffed.
Seriously maybe PLD, DARK, and WAR is alls right, you can buff or nerf to balance the class...
It make no difference if in final the 3 tanks is balanced... exept the result
If you nerf the war and loose dps with, you won't gain dps with the two others tank it will remain the same.
So what you are asking is certainly have less dps for the new raid in this case.
And also if PLD don't get higher he will still have to be the third tank desired because new raid is high dps check ?
Think about it what the tank need for Alexander savage ? Maybe Less and Less dps XD