Lets nerf WAR :D

[Syzygian]

Why? WAR feels like it's in a really good place. Shouldn't the ideal be to bring PLD and DRK up to that level?

The point is it could get nerfed and still be in a really good place. Being in a really good place and being overpowered, meta-dominating, and broken are different things. Rather than buff PLD and DRK and risk upsetting the balance further (it would not take much buffing to PLD to put DRK where PLD is now, and they can't buff DRK without PLD crying even harder, so they would really have to buff both, not one or the other), they should simply bring WAR down a notch. DRK is only used because of how magic focused the raids are, if they were physical, you could easily bring PLD or DRK, but you'd still ALWAYS bring a WAR. They aren't going to bring DRK and PLD up to that level, at least not on DPS, because they (foolishly imo) stated that DPS is part of WAR's utility. LOLOLOLOL WHY NOT JUST SAY "WINNING IS PART OF WAR'S UTILITY"?

So unless they decide to go back on what Yoshi P said, they ain't bringing PLD and DRK up to WAR DPS in both MT and OT slots any time soon. But they could nerf WAR's DPS and mitigation ---slightly--- in order to make them not utterly mandatory for any progression group.

The power and ease with which WAR wields it while maintaining survivability is great and if they actually buff the damage and ease of DPSing while mitigating damage on the other two tanks up to WAR levels, great. I just feel like that's unlikely and a more convoluted solution than to simply take WAR down a peg from "broken and OP" to "a good, well rounded tank that performs in content and has adequate raid utility".

Pretty much, what I believe, is that PLD and DRK are tanks, and WAR is an overpowered obscenity. Rather than make PLD and DRK overpowered obscenities, since they function fine in a vacuum unless they're having to fight for a raid-slot against a WAR, they should just make WAR a tank. =P

Go try and make a raid group with a PLD/DRK composition, I dare you. Unless they're all REALLY good friends, they're gonna laugh in your face.

[fm_fenrir]

No Wrath/Abandon Stacks from second-tier combo abilities

I can't put my finger on why I don't like this, but it's something about the way it slows WAR's pace.

Inner Beast damage nerf.

Because it's MT WAR's strongest skill? Lowering it to 200 potency makes it heal for some (even more) abysmally low value, and coupled with your 15% damage reduction suggestion makes this skill virtually useless. The self-heal for IB is basically a DA Souleater, and nobody is crying that's OP.

3. SLIGHT nerf to Maim or Unchained. I get that WAR has a high degree of offensive CDs because it has lower potencies and almost no off-GCD dps, but one of them needs a nerf. Either a recast time increase or slight (like 5-10%) damage nerf. Combined with Internal Release and Berserk its just a silly amount of free damage CDs they have, and their potencies aren't THAT much lower. Maybe make Berserk's pacification incurable.

Unchained has a pretty long CD for its uptime, and it's literally useless if you're not MT. The whole idea of berserk/unchained stacking is to get so far ahead in threat that you can coast on your utility skills like DRK does.

Increase Defiance/Deliverance recast to 20-30s.

I'd suggest making it cost TP to switch, but that's just cruel to do to a melee class.

5. Nerf Equilibrium in Deliverance to 100 TP. Someone told me once how long a WAR OT takes to TP floor. I don't remember the number, but it was insane. They shouldn't have such an unequivocal advantage over every other job in the game that uses TP.

Finally, a statement I can get behind. WAR was specifically excluded from taking LNC as a cross-class because of Invigorate, so why would they turn around and add it back in Heavensward? Who thought this was a good idea?

WAR directly screws with the other tanks' ability to stance-dance

This really isn't a thing, though. I mean, PLD's OT default is to spam Halone until they get over 50, so it's not like you should be new to the idea of the OT using their enmity combo irrespective of whether they should be MT or not. Also, DRK suffers a loss from dropping Grit because of the MP cost to put it back up, so once it's down it's staying that way. RIP healers.

1. Increase Vengeance and/or Thrill of Battle recast to 150s. Still less than Sentinel and Bulwark and Shadow Wall but not so short that its ridiculous (120s for what these abilities do is a little much).

Vengeance is worse than Sentinel, so it has a shorter CD. Thrill of Battle isn't particularly amazing either, especially considering its CD.

Sorry if you were offended.

I ain't even mad. I play all the tanks, but none of these changes address PLD's issues.

[RapBreon]

snip

Personally, I'm all for nerfing WAR to bring it down to PLD's level. Given the choice I'd take nerfs over buffs anyday (all other factors equal), it lengthens how long a tier lasts for. People that constantly hedge for buffs often are typically thinking about how it interacts with them on a personal level and not the powercreep involved with a constant cycle of buffs. That being said, targeted buffs can be the correct choice.

However, the problem is, A4s has been bested; so it would be bad form for SE to turn around and nerf the classes now. On top of that your changes are heavy handed; if it was done correctly I would support a WAR nerf.

[PotatoWafflez]

I can't really comment on most of your suggestions due to not being that into the meta and "the numbers" but I think lowering wrath generation would be a bad idea.

I think it would change the feel of the job too much. Would be another wave of "THEY BROKE MY CLASS/JOB" which I'm sure we all want on these forums

[rawker]

IMO, now that we have 3 tanks to compete for tank slots in raids, the underlying issues that weren't visible pre-HW has now surfaced. WAR, as of this moment, is mandatory whereas PLD and DRK fight for that one slot. Well... with the new 24-man raid, this should be a non-issue since the raid requires 3 tanks. But let's just focus on the 8-man scenario. WARs are in a very good spot right now seeing that their absence is pretty much felt by the entire raid. Asking for nerfs to WARs will just aggravate the situation. Don't fix something that isn't broken. Tweak some of the damage done by WARs, sure, the community wouldn't mind but to outright nerf them to match the brokenness that is PLD or DRK(?) is just asking for more angry players flooding this section.

[Jhett_Magnum]

No. If they did nerf war that'd be the last time I play that class.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Set a criteria for "obscenely overpowered," and then empirically prove that WAR fulfills that criteria.

[SpookyGhost]

Because it's MT WAR's strongest skill? Lowering it to 200 potency makes it heal for some (even more) abysmally low value, and coupled with your 15% damage reduction suggestion makes this skill virtually useless. The self-heal for IB is basically a DA Souleater, and nobody is crying that's OP.

While I don't think lowering it to a flat 200 potency would be a good solution, lowering it to 200 potency and making the heal work akin to how it worked in 2.0 and heal you for 1.5x damage dealt would give it the same effect just deal less damage. However, I also don't think this is a good idea as DRK already does higher MT damage than WAR so this would only put WAR further behind in that regard... and that's what we want to avoid. :V

[Syzygian]

This really isn't a thing, though. I mean, PLD's OT default is to spam Halone until they get over 50, so it's not like you should be new to the idea of the OT using their enmity combo irrespective of whether they should be MT or not. Also, DRK suffers a loss from dropping Grit because of the MP cost to put it back up, so once it's down it's staying that way. RIP healers.

No, this is what isn't really a thing. Stance dancing on DRK isn't much harder than doing it on WAR in the sense of you can turn it off for free you just have to get your MP back up (or in WAR's case, wait for the recast) to put it up, and if you're dropping Grit while tanking you have Blood Price AND Blood Weapon, which means by the time you need Grit again, you should be swimming in MP even if you've been doing nothing but DA Souleater. And when you're MTing as DRK, you don't want to use your enmity combo after your opener, like, at all. With PLD on WAR they still need to use their enmity combo for DPS/debuff purposes.

Anyway...

See the thing I keep seeing people go back to is buff PLD and DRK. If you take WAR out of the picture and assume a tier of raids that has equal parts magic and physical damage/tankbusters, do they really seem like there's much wrong with them? Not really, if you ask me. So I say nerf WAR. I'm not saying nerf it down to PLD's level but there's no reason for them to be so far ahead of the other tanks, (only being given any real competition by DRK and even then, only if they're both in tank stance) to the point where they are guaranteed a raid slot and no one would dream of bringing the other two tanks together, sans WAR.

And as I said in my OP, changing raid design to focus more on physical damage won't help anything, I'll just make PLD and DRK switch places, with WAR still being a mainstay. =/

[GavynG]

Personally I don't think any job that's fun should be made less fun. I like where warriors are at and I don't even play one.

I do play DRK and PLD, though, and it's PLD I'd like to see tweaked a bit... Not so much their dps like everyone else seems to want (though I wouldn't complain if they did :P), but the way they play. Like taking Shield and Sword Oath off the GCD, while also not interrupting your combos when you use them. Buffing PLD's enmity (especially AoE for the lowbies), lowering a few CD timers, tweaking Clemency and other "support-type" abilities to make them more worth using, etc., and so that they have more to do than just manage aggro. I'd rather be able to support the group more and feel more active than get a boost to dps. As for DRK, most of what I want from PLD has been based on my experience playing DRK, so it's safe to say I'm pretty satisfied with them. :P Even if I feel they could use a tweak or two. Just not on the same level I feel PLD needs it.