Lets nerf WAR :D

[Syzygian]

Never rely on RNG to save your buttocks.

Tired of seeing this argument as well because its quite simply NOT like this in practice.
A Reprisal would be the icing on the cake, other CDs should be up. A Reprisal by itself is simply not ever going to save you.

Also again, sure its RNG, but if you don't parry once in 20 seconds with a 50-60% chance to do so, LOL, I'm sorry but that's just not a common enough problem to warrant a mechanical change.

I can see this argument working if I was trying to say that you should use Dark Dance in the hopes of parrying one specific hit, because as PLDs in T13 learned with Bulwark, you can and will get fucked over, but that's not what we're talking about here, which leads me to my next point.

The fact that you have to hold a defensive CD just to potentially activate another CD for a big hit is poor effective design and a convoluted gameplay mechanic.

Because what else would you use a parry rate increase for? Mitigating auto-attack damage before/after TBs? oh wait...

The way this works is actually very good design, IMO, because it helps shave off the amount of damage you take from autos leading up to a TB, thus requiring less heals to top you off (potentially), and then get a present for it (Reprisal).

In A2S, both were a big part of my CD rotation. While things like SS and SW were on CD I would pop Dark Dance and then put Reprisal on the Doll I was not focusing and therefore not facing and therefore unable to parry its attacks.

Here's some math:

If a boss auto attacks you every 3 seconds and you have Dark Dance up, you have around a 0.083 chance, assuming NO investment in your parry stat, to NOT get a single Reprisal proc inside that 20 seconds. If you land on the pear-shaped side of such odds, I'm really sorry, but you're probably just unlucky. I reiterate, I've never been left wanting for a proc in any situation in savage thus far in which my life depended on it. =/

I feel that the job plays extremely well, and I was not a "paper tank" as so many people warned me that DRK would be in A2S (I'm able to spend almost as much time out of tank stance in there as my WAR OT, and he only gets more time out of it b/c we kill his adds first, naturally). Does it have strengths and weaknesses? Absolutely. But so does every job in the game other than WAR (the whole point of this thread). Do its strengths/weaknesses break it? Nah.

[karateorangutang]

snip

Admittedly, I don't play DRK so this is more a direct question than a critique of your post.

Reprisal is based on parry which does happen often making the ability based on a RNG circumstance. I know dark dance makes this sort of thing likely, seems to work the exact same way as bulward + shield swipe, but shouldn't the real question for the ability be something else?

I guess from my view why should reprisal need to be, even partially, gated behind another CD? I also know Darkside should be up all the time, but if its not for whatever reason then it becomes even less likely.

[Syzygian]

Admittedly, I don't play DRK so this is more a direct question than a critique of your post.

Reprisal is based on parry which does happen often making the ability based on a RNG circumstance. I know dark dance makes this sort of thing likely, seems to work the exact same way as bulward + shield swipe, but shouldn't the real question for the ability be something else?

I guess from my view why should reprisal need to be, even partially, gated behind another CD? I also know Darkside should be up all the time, but if its not for whatever reason then it becomes even less likely.

LOL, I've gotten enough critique as it is for this whole thread. I'm not taking it personally even though a lot of folks are getting REALLY mad.

To answer your question, its not really. I get Reprisal procs all the time in the 30 seconds when their cooldowns don't line up. Reprisal is *only* -10% and as I said, I'm not counting on such a piddly amount to save my life from shit in savage where autoattacks crit for 9K any more than I'm counting on getting a lucky parry. Its just an intelligent synergy between the two abilities that is A. effective and B. fun to use. That and with so many people slamming Dark Dance I'm perplexed as to why anyone would be up in arms for "wasting" it to proc a Reprisal. If it was gated behind something that doesn't already have very high uptime (20s out of every 60? cmon now. You'll have it again before you know it) or that was an extremely powerful CD that I needed to save for something else (Shadow Wall or something) then yeah, I'd agree. But its not. Its just fine where it is.

Also, based again on my experience in A2S (which is just a great example overall for these argument because it requires such high and constant CD uptime for the MT), there would be times where the only thing I would have available to me is Dark Dance, while I'm waiting for another CD or combination of CDs to come back off recast. Frankly, I'm very glad that DD is married so well to another, guaranteed form of mitigation to stack it with, as it makes it possible to pop it by itself, get a proc, and have a decent period of mitigation to fill the gap between cooldowns.

i.e. here was the CD rotation I used in A2S for double jagd (they are staggered in this way due to me using Shadow Wall and Shadowskin on the previous two phases to facilitate keeping Grit off for longer:

0s- bloodbath
convalescence
drac vit pot
10s-


20s- shadowskin


30s-


40s- dark dance
reprisal

50s-


60s- foresight
awareness

70s-


80s- shadow wall


90s- bloodbath (by this point, the entire party is stacked up in the SW corner for next wave so I'm catching a lot more AoE heals and can afford this gap in CDs)


100s-dark dance
reprisal

110s-


120s-shadowskin - one of my dolls is usually dead, no CDs popped after this point to save them for the final wave.


So I guess my point is, the fact that Reprisal can be tied so easily to DD makes DD a very viable CD by itself without having to stack anything, if you're taking a constant stream of physical damage, and the mitigation averages out to close to as much as a Shadowskin.

[Violette]

As FallenWings said, Warrior's shouldn't be nerfed. They're the monks of tanks. Minimal raid utility, maximal damage. Warrior's are inherently a selfish class and it's part of what makes them unique.

Paladin's should be more akin to ninjas, with a LOT of utility but the lowest damage. And Dragoons are like Dark Knights, they both have some good raid utility, but not as much as the ninja/paladin.


How can we fix this?
1. Give paladins more enmity in shield oath. This will bring their enmity gen up to scratch and in line with the other two tanks over time (not initially).

2. Give Shield Swipe a higher damage value. 10-20 potency more will be nice.

3. Give Shelltron a residual effect, i.e. blocks the next auto attack, while active magic damage reduced by 10%
4. Divine Veil is on a longish cooldown for a somewhat mediocre effect. Could it instead give a 10% bubble while increasing the damage towards the paladin's target by 5% for 10 seconds?

[Syzygian]

Minimal raid utility, maximal damage.

Storm's Path is extremely good utility by itself, its all they need to get them a spot if raid utility is the only concern. They also provide the slashing debuff which is priceless to the other two tanks, and makes a NIN's rotation much less annoying. So yeah. I will agree with you that they are an inherently selfish class, because I've met quite a few that are more interested in doing max DPS on their own with repeated BB combos than in keeping these debuffs up 100% of the time for their group.

[karateorangutang]

snip

Well the big complaint right now though is that WAR's, arguably, bring the best raid utility to the table. SE and SP are both raid wide buffs. It's indirect but very effective.

[Dante_V]

I agree 100% with Sygygian on the DD/Reprisal synergy. There has literally been 1 time that reprisal did not proc for me in savage during a1s and it didn't kill me because I had two other cool downs running. It's something you use in combination with other moves, not rely on by itself to survive.

[Jhett_Magnum]

First of all I play all 3. And you are forgetting we get pacified, we have to manage our buffs/debuffs, Oh and Defiance DOES NOT Reduce damage taken, And our damage is nerfed 25%. In exchage we have more utility, but rather than nerf another class why don't we ask for more utility for existing classes. They already said they working on more skills.

[Kemas]

Warriors have it all and to bring drk and PLD to the same level of necessity is going to take a lot of work. I don't disagree with the OP.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

As FallenWings said, Warrior's shouldn't be nerfed. They're the monks of tanks. Minimal raid utility, maximal damage. Warrior's are inherently a selfish class and it's part of what makes them unique.

"Unique" isn't the word I'd pair with selfish, especially if they're given two of the most important debuffs in the game. If this selfishness is factually apart of their lore and they're indeed inherently selfish.....those debuffs should only rightly go to other jobs. If they're inherently selfish, Square-Enix has failed the gaming community by making them a REQUIREMENT for world first, second, third, etc. If they're selfish, it would explain why Square-Enix has made Warriors never anything other than the posterboy for the entirety of this game since 2.1 in both cinematics and gameplay. Warrior has literally been the best thing this game has to offer in every regard since their enhancement. They have the least clunk, the best all around ability, and have the most going for them. It's been the case, again, since their enhancement in 2.1. No one has ever been in disagreement about this point.